Permaculture People's Party

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Tamara, May 24, 2007.

  1. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    as a member of the Greens party I cannot see that any of the Greens policies are contradiction of Permaculture principals :?

    IMHO starting another party rather than supporting the existing one is just splitting valuable resources :( and one of our biggest problems is finding funds for office expenses and election expenses

    I am quiet disapointed to see such a divisive action coming from the permaculture movement .......... wouldnt supporting the existing party and changing anything you dont agree with and adding policies you think we lack be more in keeping with "minimising waste" for example ?

    the Greens party operates by consensus so every policy and everything we do is open to evolving if members support change


    frosty
     
  2. RobWindt

    RobWindt Junior Member

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    "the Greens party operates by consensus so every policy and everything we do is open to evolving if members support change"

    And there lies the problem, consensus is great in small to medium groups where everyone knows each other. When there are competing agendas and motivations in a disparate and widely dispersed group we end up with policies of appeasement and little in the way of constructive action. A political system that is reactive rather than pro-active has a dismal future ahead of it, the current ruling parties implosion is a case in point.

    A party that has the designers manual as its touchstone/ reference point has a solid platform of sustainability in all of its policies/ endeavours and would be attractive to those Greens (and potential Greens) who are exasperated by that parties lack in areas such as population growth, economic growth and suburban expansion.
     
  3. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I don't follow Australian politics enough to know if this is relevant, but in NZ the Greens have been in parliament long enough now to have made that inevitable shift towards the centre. The longer they are there, and the more they want to have power there, the more conservative they have to become (in order to appeal to the maintream voters, and in order to work collaboratively with the Labour government).

    This isn't a bad thing necessarily, it's just what happens. In NZ it's becoming apparent that soon there will be a space that the Greens once held that is now vacant. The Greens will be a more mainstream party, and the space will, hopefully, be occupied by something that can keep the most progessive and important green issues in the public eye (which is what the Greens here used to do).

    I doubt that in NZ it would be a permaculture based party (because there aren't enough permies here), but I can certainly see it being something along the lines of sustainability, energy descent, environmental issues, permaculture etc.

    The point I am making is that any political party that starts on the cutting edge, will eventually become more mainstream and need a replacement. So I wouldn't see the Greens and the PPP as two parties as being a bad thing. They could actually become allies.


    that's my 2 cents from over the ditch ;)
     
  4. Ev

    Ev Junior Member

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    I don't have a problem with chopping down a few trees, killing a few whales the greens seem to want to ban/save everything without having a proven better alternative that will work ie they say renewable energy but they have no solution to quench the appetite of the consumer majority to make it workable possibly resulting in illegal power generation which they would fight with the illegal power generating police branch etc evil little police statists that I see them to be.(or maybe I'm crazy)

    Also their Gay/transgender loving and religion hating laws they wish to introduce I consider wrong as do many others. See next paragraph it is also that I feel these are matters that goverment should not involve itself with

    I hope for a more Confucian principle of governing where the state has minimal interference in our lives and largely has us governing ourselves.
    The Greens do not come close to providing this, but it would be my hope that a permaculture party would come closer to that ideal.
     
  5. richard in manoa

    richard in manoa Junior Member

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    That's a Confucian principle? I am no expert on Confucianism, but I thought that it was a system that promoted individual subservience to the state... Sure in an ideal Confucian order, people basically govern themselves through proper respect for the institutions of family and state, but, I don't know that I would characterise that as the state having minimal influence in the people's lives... quite the opposite.
    I also take exception to Ev's characterization of Green policies. I don't believe the Greens are "religion hating". They may well oppose state funding of religious institutions, but that is hardly the same thing. I would be suprised if the Greens charter doesn't in fact guarantee freedom of religion.
    I wouldn't expect a Permaculture Party to be any less protective of people's rights to express their sexuality or spirituality as they see fit than the Greens are.

    Frosty, I think that the Greens actually do tend towards what I was trying to describe as the "Leave it Alone" school of conservation. Hopefully you get the distinction I am trying to make... Not to say that the Greens aren't a broad church - I know for sure that there a quite a few people in the Greens who are Permaculture practitioners - I am sure that the Greens and the PPP would have more in common than not.
    Still, a really free democracy is going to have more than one option to vote for, right? Wouldn't you rather the choice between two good candidates than having to vote for the only "green" by default?
    Heck, the Greens and the Permies can give each other preferences.

    Bring on the day when the ticket is full of green candidates, I say!
     
  6. Tamara

    Tamara Junior Member

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    I generally vote Greens.
    I think the greens are good, but they don't have any policies that say to fix the country we need to practice permaculture on a national scale. And really, we do need every farmer in the country practicing permaculture, building soil, and every city dweller growing some vegies and if possible keeping some chooks.
    Even if we just get Permaculture out there, at least the term known, we are one step closer to a better world. And if the Greens pick some methods etc, then all the better.

    I have doubts that the PPP will ever get someone into government but is that the main aim? Don't we want a voice in the mainstream? Don't we want malcolm turnbull to know what a swale is? Or Peter Garrett? We have the methods to rescue the Murray-Darling, enable farmers to stop irrigating. Surely we want that known?

    p.s. Party registration is quite a process.
    There is a rather convoluted form and a constitution required along with 500 members that goes to the AEC. And then they decide if it is all kosher.
     
  7. Jim Bob

    Jim Bob Junior Member

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    I don't think it's "utopian" to say, "okay, you're going to have a political party: what are your policies?" It's like going to buy a car and asking, what's the mileage, how much does it cost, what colour is it and so on. It's an entirely fair question, and not at all "utopian."

    The Permaculture People's Party: what are your policies?

    Maybe, maybe not. But in the end they have got people elected, and influenced (through preferences) the elections of other people. So they must have some degree of pragmatism. The hopelessly idealistic ones never get elected at all!
    Well, governments can help or hinder that kind of small-scale interconnectedness. Try - as I have - getting a community garden started, and you'll soon see that having local politicians friendly or against the idea makes all the difference - it killed our project.
    By that argument, we only need one political party in any "democracy". We can just support the existing Party and change whatever we disagree with. Hmmm...

    I can see the value of a Permaculture Party - I'd drop the "People's" because that says to everyone "we're communists" and will remove any credibility. But I can only see that value with certain policies - but no policies have been suggested - that's why I asked, "how would it be different to the Greens? What would the policies be?"
     
  8. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Jimbob,

    That didnt come across very well but I was just trying to bump any policy discussion over to another thread.

    I have always meant to ask you about the photo, were you out hunting when that was taken?

    Recently I read that NSW is now allowing hunting in national parks at certain times. It requires a seperate registration fee but is an excellent initiative all the same. You also have to register online before each hunt.

    In the NT it is pretty common practise to get petmeat shooters into Parks to reduce donkey/buffalo/cattle and horse numbers.

    floot
     
  9. Jim Bob

    Jim Bob Junior Member

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    Not wanting to hijack this thread, responded to floot in a new thread, "Me & my picture".
     
  10. richard in manoa

    richard in manoa Junior Member

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    I've been thinking about this a little bit in the last few days and want to change my position slightly... While I think a Permaculture Party would be fabulous, I do think that obviously there would be a need to work closely with the Greens to ensure that they didn't hold each other back from office. Hence my comments about preferences.
    Recently on Maui there was a County Council election, in which there were two fairly prominent "greens", one from the Sierra Club who has been very active in opposing unsustainable development on Maui for many years, and another with ironically somewhat better name recognition amongst a certain portion of the community.
    People on Maui, by and large, are pretty progressive in their politics, if they think about politics at all. I think between them they got more than enough votes for one of them to be sitting on the council right now, making good decisions for the future of Maui's environment, but neither of them won anything on election day.
    It would be kind of tragic if a PPP achieved the same sort of results in Australia.

    I actually think that political parties are a pretty big obstacle to democracy and that we would be far more likely to achieve representative government if individuals stood on their own platforms and were thus able to respond to their electorates more flexibly. Maybe the first thing the PPP can do when it gets into government is to ban political parties, including itself!
     
  11. heuristics

    heuristics Junior Member

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    I vote to delete the "people" from the proposed permaculture party name.

    I think it is redundant, unless we are wanting to distinguish ourselves from the Chookies' Permaculture Party or the One Humped Camel's Permaculture Party.

    If a third "P" is required to give gravitas or whatever, how about Promoting Permaculture Party, or Power of Permaculture Party.

    Pervasive Permaculture Party
    Perennial Permaculture Party
    Popular Permacultue Party
    Practical Permaculture Party
     
  12. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Thanks for alerting the board to this development Tamara, I will be sending our membership forms down to Bill and watching this new concept with great interest.
     
  13. Tamara

    Tamara Junior Member

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  14. jackie

    jackie Junior Member

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    ppp

    Sounds a great idea there's no one to vote for. My understanding from the guy out the front of the polling booth at the Vic state election is that the Greens don't support shooting ie: feral animal control. Haven't looked into it a lot but do you need to be vegan to vote greens???
    Permie principles sound like the ideal political platform.
    Jackie
     
  15. Tamara

    Tamara Junior Member

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    Someone to vote for: I suggest that all permies are welcome to stand for election in their seat. Do they need to have done a pdc? up for debate.

    get your form in, lets form this party and get people standing in the next election. Lets have a say. Lets get on the news, on landline, in the papers, in the Weekly times!!! Lets tell the farmers federation our policies, lets get Bill on the 7.30 report!!!!!!!!!

    get your forms in...please!!!!! The AEC process once we lodge for party registration is about 6 weeks. The election cal be called from October.

    We need to move fast. We have 4 months.
    Get your forms in. Make Bill's year. Please hurry!!!!!

    Love Tamara
    Party convenor
     
  16. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Personally, I think that's an essential unless the person can demonstrate living up to close to identical ideals which the PDC promotes.

    Otherwise you'll get some maverick break-away members running for seats who the media love to give time to - who don't represent the same ideals Permaculture is all about. You can be jeopardised by special interest groups temporarily masquerading as part of your party from the moment of conception...then your name is effectively mud (through mass media perception) before you get off the ground.

    IMO, if people are going to represent something, they have to have a thorough grounding in what it's all about. It may be that their non-PDC gained ideals marry very well to PDC ideals (through demonstrated life direction and morals - for lack of a better fitting word), in that case, no problem. But IMO it would have to be an obvious and undeniable similarity in overall philosophies. The two major parties can afford a few truly 'radical' members with significantly different philosophies to the standard party view...I don't think a new party running quite a few members while seeking to brand itself and imprint its beliefs on the electorate ASAP can.

    A workshop down in Tassie (or wherever) with Bill for anyone planning to run for office (discussing ideas/policies and getting a feel for universal direction/aims) could be a good starting point beyond registration? It would make sure all those running are on the same page and united toward going in the same basic direction.

    Have you or Bill looked into government funding for political parties at local/state/federal levels Tamara?

    Hehe...I just realised...IF I decided to run for office, I'd be up against Bob Katter... :lol:

    To be dead honest though, I came to FNQ years ago thinking Bob was a bit of a redneck nutter. Talk to him face to face however, and he's a very genuine bloke...ideologically misguided in many ways, but a pretty down to earth and honest politician compared to most.
     
  17. Tamara

    Tamara Junior Member

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    IMO, people that run must have a PDC. (I did Permaculture stuff before my PDC, but I must say that it was a life changing experience and that I've never seen the world in the same way since.)

    I'd like to know what others think.

    Jez wrote:
    This is a very good idea. I'll raise it with Bill. As soon as we are getting close to the number needed to register, we should look at this.

    There is funding but Bill is not keen at all about external monies. But I'm sure it can be put up for discussion.

    Must dash,
    Tamara
     
  18. Sonya

    Sonya Junior Member

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    Permaculture Noosa had the forms available at last night's meeting. I grabbed mine and will send it off.

    We should have a set of policies on everything, nuclear, water etc - what about generating some at the national conference?

    I think a PDC would be mandatory, a very few people whose ideas align could be involved, but the majority would need to do a pdc to get the philosophy of permaculture and that deep understanding.

    The time is definately right, the need for permaculture has never been more urgent.

    Cheers,
    Sonya
     
  19. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    As a non-PDC type permie with a lot of experience and understanding I would probably qualify for admission and am very capable of 'singing off they same sheet' but the basic requirement of earning a PDC is not too much to ask.

    One of the more important functions of any political party is pre-selection. For those of you that have participated it is a fascinating but onerous job. I would very rapidly come up with a list of questions for candidates under the following headings.

    If a journalist asked you:

    If an identified permaculturist asked you:

    If a fellow citizen asked you:

    Lastly, a section on 'what would you say if a fellow permie political hopeful said this' type questionnaire.

    A sample question from a journo would be: What do you do about recycling?

    ''I put my plastics in one side of the little green bin and my paper in the other''.

    Whilst this isnt wrong - we really need to be telling journalists - ''As a permaculturist it is our policy to minimise waste at point of purchase, stay away from multiple and expensive packaging to reduce the need for recycling.''

    Question: 'You call yourself a permaculturist but you wear a $3000 suit?'

    [Hehe... the only answer I can think for this one is - ''I must ask my partner about that sometime'.... and then flee :shock: ]

    We need someone to articulate a set of national/state/regional strategies.

    There needs to be some consideration given to the issue of 'hijacking', how do we deter an individual [permie pollie] who is a gifted speaker, from philosophically hijacking the movement. I am not thinking 'rules' here just more of a 'weather eye' thing.

    I would very much like to see us become an 'internet party'. I took part in a [political] branch chairmens' meeting last year by phone and it was a huge success because we were all there. Yes I had to wait about 10 mins for the hook-up to happen but it was a bloody sight easier than a 15 hour drive or return jet flights.


    Enough from me..

    floot
     
  20. Fern O.

    Fern O. Junior Member

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    Well, there's certainly enough politics and divisions/ factions in permaculture to qualify it to be a political party... oops! just realised i'm not anonymous :)

    I'll join... it would be good to see David Holmgren as world dictator :lol: (reference to his talk at the ACFCGN conference last March).

    I'll spread the word to Permaculture International's list serve (Or do you want to do this Tamara?) and to my bioregional permaculture network.

    It's about time that permaculture infiltrated mainstream governance.

    I'll stand for corangamite, my area (one of the safest liberal seats there is... gulp! I'll back up Fi, who's standing for the Greens and we can preference each other :lol: )

    It certainly will raise the public profile of Permaculture and permaculturalists, especially if we get a PPP candidate in each seat.
     

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