Permaculture - Getting paid vs. Paying to do it

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by insipidtoast, Sep 10, 2011.

  1. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,721
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    inland Otago, NZ
    Climate:
    Inland maritime/hot/dry/frosty
    Now, now, play nice ;-)

    The impression I have of Geoff Lawton is that he isn't an entrepreneur. He's a permie who is so good at what he does that he's gone to the top of his game, and making a decent living* follows that (as well as landing big aid contracts etc).

    There is a difference between making a living and making money. I wonder where you are at with the Insipid?


    *although I have no idea whatsoever what his personal income is, as opposed to what the PRI makes.
     
  2. macey

    macey Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    FWIW I paid to do my PDC, I volunteer back where I did my PDC helping to run and teach the course. I today got a paid job at a primary school teaching food gardening based on the fact that I have a PDC and I run a successful food production system at home. It is not my motivation, but through this position I will be able to have contact with parents of kids who may well be interested in either my design services or short courses I will be running out of my site giving me the opportunity to both spread the permaculture word lol as well as making a living from it. I will be paying to do courses at both PRI and Melliodora this year, the skills I learn will help me in both my deign skills and my ability to educate, including running my own PDC's down the track. I have an agreement with a local health food shop to supply boxes of vegetables in exchange for products I may want such as organic coffee or herbs, as well as word of mouth advertising for permaculture courses and services I offer. I have another agreement with a local restaurant that they will take boxes of surplus vege's in exchange for a starter and a glass of wine every now and then (if it's not fun, the designs wrong lol) I plan on helping out those in my local community who don't have access to fresh nutritious foods through lack of money by offering food boxes in exchange for a few hours work in running my property where I will hopefully be able to teach some skills that may allow them to grow their own food. So I guess what I'm trying to say is you can pay to do permaculture, you can be paid to do permaculture, you can pay others to help you do permaculture, you can do permaculture for free and if earning money from permaculture is your requirement, the opportunities are there to network and do that, just remember to share the surplus!
     
  3. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Thanks to Permaculture videos, books, forums, and actual 1 on 1 discussions, not to mention people like Fukuoka, Hazlip, Holzer, Lawton's, Mollison, and well, the list grows each day; I am thankful each and everyday that Permaculture has allowed me to have a life instead of a living.
     
  4. Finchj

    Finchj Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I may be far off the mark, but here goes:

    I think I can understand where insipid is coming from, although not where he went with his post.

    It is tough right now for those who are at the beginning of their adult lives. U6 unemployment is 17.5% in my state. Although I have a bachelors degree, no one is hiring history majors. Money is hard to come by and, due to the way our system has been set up, if you don't have money then it becomes much much harder to accomplish anything. Food costs money. Transportation costs money. Living space, any utilities, etc... all cost money. The jobs that are out there are mainly minimum wage jobs. $7.25/hr even 40 hours a week will not cover the basic costs of living. It just won't. You will be on food stamps, if you can get them.

    So it is frustrating when you want to work, when you want to work hard, but you do want to get paid so that you don't need to worry as much. It may be harder for folks who have been doing this a while (or have a set career and do permaculture as well) to understand, but the last decade was a Lost Decade. Things are different now. It also may be harder for those who do not live in the United States of America to comprehend just how scary life is when you do not have an income. Our citizens, by and large, have not created a government that seeks to help everyone. If I get sick, and I mean really sick - or if I get in an accident while riding my bicycle- I have to pay over $2,500 before my insurance company will step in. I could very well become bankrupt if something were to happen to me.

    My family is struggling. Millions of other families are struggling. It is tough out there. And it is especially tough for those people, like myself, who just want to help, just want to roll up their sleeves and get to work doing something physical and good, to swallow the bitter pill that, by and large, the society we find ourselves in would rather pay you to kill than pay for life.

    Is there hope? There is always hope. But hope won't get you very far and sometimes it gets very, very hard living in a society that just doesn't care. The daily grind to survive can make people very bitter. Myself included, many days.

    But we shouldn't begrudge our fellow permaculturalists for doing what they need to do to survive. As another poster said, we are all in the same community here.
     
  5. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Finchj,

    Doesn't having a slowly evolving permaculture system on your own property slowly help you and the planet, and your neighbors (by learning what you are doing) help in the long run? Wouldn't 1 $3 pack of seeds produce enough food to dent that food budget which frees money up for other things? It did for me when I was in a former murder capital of California.

    What I am getting at is there are things that can be done slowly and cheaply that offset the costs for other things. My food budget drops every year as I eat more and more from my property, getting sustainable isn't easy, but it is possible, even when poor. Heck, Craigslist.org often has amazing stuff for free, especially where Insipid is. I checked, he could of gotten free hops today, as well as free bricks for making a rocket stove, and some free bamboo!!!

    I know its hard to stay positive, oh wait, you actually have insurance? Damn, you are lucky. I haven't had insurance in 3 years, despite being a 24/7 in home care provider while doing Permaculture on the property here... ..so honestly, I don't see where you 2 are coming from.
     
  6. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,215
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Where there's a will there's a way

    One of my favourite principles of Permaculture is "The problem is the solution". And the way I see it, the things you are describing Insipid and Finch are a perfect example. It seem to me like the things that appear to be happening in the US are exactly the sort of things permaculturist have been predicting. It is the breakdown of something that has been unsustainable for a very long time. At the same time permaculture minds have been offering solutions. Permaculture is the solution. Perhaps it is the Usurper.

    And we all know that the reigning power is never going to help the Usurper take power. The king will fight to his very last man.

    Just find a way and DO it. Rise up!

    RISE UP COMRADES! Your time is NOW.
     
  7. Terra

    Terra Moderator

    Joined:
    May 16, 2007
    Messages:
    757
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Take a look at Geoff Lawtons resume thats why he can get a $$$ return , anybodies guess how many hours and miles he has done , only one job in the world where you start at the top , "Posthole Digging" . If you want to make money doing this then do the hard yards a PDC is only the first step .
     
  8. Finchj

    Finchj Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Insipidtoast: What is it that you wanted to do for a living? What were those "business ideas" that were shot down? Did you need a loan for start up costs? How about you tell us more about your plans and maybe some of us can offer advice.

    Pakanohida: I agree with most everything you said. Yes, I am lucky and I acknowledge that. Hence why I'm not the one who originally posted this thread. I was simply trying to understand where insipidtoast's frustrations could be coming from. If I dare say, your last paragraph is edgy for no apparent reason.

    I left out an important sentence in my first post- I think that insipidtoast is venting.

    Sometimes people need to vent when they have pent up frustrations. Venting on the web is nothing new and I think that people tend to do so on websites where they feel that their fears or frustrations can be talked down in a respectful way by friendly individuals.

    Although the topic he is addressing has been beaten to death and obviously arouses strong passions, we should be offering assistance rather than stiff backs. Even if someone feels that he has been disrespectful (especially in regards to roping Mr. Mollison and Mr. Lawton into his argument), our responses should be thoughtful and positive.

    Maybe I shouldn't have jumped to insipidtoast's defense, but it just felt that people were talking past one another and not in a very nice way. And just because we may not understand where he is coming from doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

    But, thats all just my opinion.
     
  9. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Ahh, I understand where you are coming from now. It's hard to understand someones perspective sometimes using text as a communication tool... the 'essence' gets lost sometimes. Thank you for clarifying. :)
     
  10. TheDirtSurgeon

    TheDirtSurgeon Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    137
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0

    I vent all the time about politics and economy. With good reason.

    But I have no idea in what context Bill and Geoff could be thought of as part of the problem. They are essentially being accused of lying and profiteering. Here are two guys (of many) with real, solid solutions to environmental degradation, and little Joe College Grad is waggling a finger at them as if they'd personally promised him a living then kicked his pet kitten.

    Well, it's not personal, nor is it a unique situation. I'd dare say I've seen a similar attitude from the majority of recent college grads. There, I racked up tons of debt (or spent tons of Daddy's money) now where's my cushy job? Hey, it ain't there. PhDs make lattes at Starbucks.

    The politicians and the bankers have fucked this country over, hard. The one most important factor in wealth for a country, manufacturing, is gone. If by some miracle we got our factories back, we could fix it, but that's not likely. That's the reality, and it's not getting rosier for the foreseeable future. Complaining about it is fruitless. Wishing for the demise of capitalism is a waste of time.

    I'm not trying to be mean to anyone. I'm posting a reality check.
     
  11. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,721
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    inland Otago, NZ
    Climate:
    Inland maritime/hot/dry/frosty
    Ranting seems reasonable. However when I go reread the original post, I see two questions:

    The second question to me is of far more importance, yet the rest of the post is about questions one. So for me it looks more like a moan about permaculture not providing a living in the way that some other 'qualifications' do, and I fundamentally disagree with the idea that permaculture is supposed to do that, or that it is permaculture's fault if someone wants to practice permaculture but can't make a living by doing so, so it's hard not to respond on that basis.

    Had the original post been about the second question we would have had a very different thread.
     
  12. Finchj

    Finchj Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    After reading the original post a few more times, the reactions become more reasonable.

    Cheers
     
  13. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,721
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    inland Otago, NZ
    Climate:
    Inland maritime/hot/dry/frosty
    I did appreciate your post about the realities of life in the US now.
     
  14. Finchj

    Finchj Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thank you. Even though its only my two cents, the idea of living in a basic state of fear in the States is really foreign to the folks who haven't experienced it for themselves. Most of my time abroad has been spent in Europe (Finland, England, and Germany for the longest periods) and I've come to the conclusion that life in the States is incomprehensible for the majority of people who live in social democratic societies. I'll actually be the first from my family to emigrate from the United States. So, take what I said with a grain of salt; but if you are curious to hear more, feel free to ask (PM or a post on my tumblr blog).

    I'm not sure if insipidtoast will be back to check on this thread anytime soon. I would like him to.
     
  15. insipidtoast

    insipidtoast Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2009
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bingo.

    And that's why I put my bet on permaculture. If anything, it's a way OUT of this mess.

    What attracted me most to permaculture originally was that I saw it as a means to eradicate work. I saw it as the backbone to a society that no longer conjoins the individual's survival with an obligatory schedule of task performance. It was, and still is, the most effective tool to eliminate an exchange-based economic paradigm. Real abundance is free of insecurity and the notion of "earning one's keep." Abundance must be our goal.

    Notice that it is "Share the surplus." Not "Trade the Surplus" Or "Charge interested on your surplus."
     
  16. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,721
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    inland Otago, NZ
    Climate:
    Inland maritime/hot/dry/frosty
    I'm not following that. I can go with a world that doesn't have wage slavery as the central economic tenet. But what's wrong with trading? Or working? Or making a contribution (aka earning one's keep)?

    I'm also not clear what you mean by share the surplus in this instance. How do you think a surplus is created if people don't work?
     
  17. insipidtoast

    insipidtoast Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2009
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    And to give you an idea of where I'm coming from, Finchj.

    I had a meeting a few weeks ago with a SCORE counselor to talk about my ideas to start a design consultancy business here in Southern California. I've researched over 40 edible plants that will not need supplemental irrigation in this climate and will occupy all the niches of a food forest. Essentially, my idea was a drought-proof food forest installation business.

    And I actually did get a second opinion. The second one used to work for SCORE. Both advisors essentially told me my idea was not viable based on two main reasons:
    1) People won't care enough to pay for my services as long as the shelves are full at the local grocery stores.
    2) I'm young, and people won't listen to me because I have a lack of real world experience doing consultancy or apprenticing with consultants.

    I don't believe in the first reason at all. SCORE counselors are all retired, and have lived through an older era. They've experienced a now obsolete economy. I don't know about the rest of the United States, but in my neck of the woods, people are really starting to think about localizing their supply-line needs.

    The second reason holds some validity for me. While I do have a lot of technical, plant knowledge, and general permaculture knowledge, I do lack some real world skills. I definitely lack business skills and knowledge. Also, I lack experience about how to work with clients and go about the "ins-and-outs" of doing the actual consultancy work.

    So, from talking with the counselors, it was concluded that I should go out in the world and get some experience doing that sort of thing. So, I just graduated with a Bachelor's Degree, I got an Associates degree three years ago, and now I'm being told that I'm not ready to go out into the world and start getting paid to do what I want to do. Now, I'm realizing it's hard to even get crappy jobs. At least I have the advantage of knowing what I want to do. Most people my age, go through college, come out, and still have absolutely know idea what they want to do with their lives.

    I told the SCORE counselor about Geoff Lawton and what he does, so he suggested I get in touch with him (Good luck getting in touch with Geoff Lawton!). I mentioned that the programs that they have all cost thousands of dollars, minus the travelling expenses. So he told me to shoot him an email and just say something along the lines of "Look, I'm really interested in doing this sort of thing, I'd like to get more hands-on experience working with people that are experienced with this kind of work, and I'm really short on cash." The counselor told me to "just see what he says." So, I'm still waiting for a response.

    To everyone:
    Sorry if it sounded like I was laying the smack-down on Geoff Lawton and Bill Mollison. I don't discredit what they've done, and the knowledge they have. I obviously didn't frame my questions and comments in the most constructive way. They're doing great work and are inspiring countless others. What gets me is how zealous these guys are to make the world a better place through permaculture, yet I'm not getting any practical advice on how to rise up to their ranks of world-travelling, property-buying, permaculture project speer-headers. Wouldn't we make the world a better place a lot more quickly if there was some substantial instruction from these guys on how to get to that point?

    I'm searching for truth under every rock and stone. Watch your toes!
     
  18. Finchj

    Finchj Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Insipidtoast:

    Good to see you're back. I don't have much time right this second to post a longer response. But this is important: Mr. Mollison and Mr. Lawton both came of age during a time when employment- with decent pay- wasn't scarce in the "Western Industrialized World." From what you've written, we are more than likely in the same age group. We cannot, and must not, ask for a road map from those who came before. The world they knew- more precisely, the economy they worked in- no longer exists. Sure, they can offer advice, but things are not the same anymore. You appear to grasp that fact rather firmly.

    If I were to offer any advice at the moment, it would be to use whatever job you have as a means of gaining capital for your projects. Seek out local groups. If they do not exist, form one. Put out some sort of announcement on social networking sites. Eventually someone else will come along to help. At least here in NC, there is a huge push by the state government (ok, not as large as farm subsidies or anything, but its a meaningful change of approach) for people to start gardens. Especially community gardens. See if you can make connections at your local county extension office.

    If you are willing to move think of those possibilities. I know for a fact that the Tampa Bay area in FL is home to a burgeoning food movement. I'm actually heading down there to visit friends from college and do some volunteering on garden projects this next month. I can't take a job there even if one were offered, but if you are as serious as you sound, send me a PM here / visit my tumblr and leave a message / or otherwise keep in touch if you'd like me to find out about potential jobs.
     
  19. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Insipid, you live in Santa Barbara, one of the most expensive, wealthy and capitalistic places in the world, in one of the most expensive capitalistic states in the world, and you seem to resent everything it stands for, yet you want to own property and a have high-paying job there? Seems like those things contradict each other. You think Lawson and Mollison just showed up and were handed trips around the world and thousands of people offering to pay high prices for their classes? The people you are ragging on are twice your age and have been working for 20+ years at learning/teaching/building clientele. They started with a belief in a different approach to agriculture, came up against a lot of grief and doubt, took on an uphill struggle, and they are entitled to, and have earned through very hard and focused work for decades their accomplishments. There's just no comparison to their situation and to yours.

    If you really want to aspire to buy property where you are, you have to start small and work your way up, like everyone has who has done it on their own (as opposed to inheriting it). And if you do nothing but complain about Permaculture how are your potential clientele going to be turned onto something new and worthwhile? All you're telling people is that everything about the current society sucks and capitalism should be overthrown...for what? What do you think it should be replaced with? And you think Santa Barbara is ready for that kind of change?

    Do the people who offered you a certificate owe you a successful career? Is UC Santa Barbara required to hand high-paying jobs to all of its graduates? How you use what you've earned/learned is up to you. It's going to take years to develop the kind of self-employed business you are talking about. Agriculture is one of the hardest careers to take on on a small scale. You have to have business knowledge, basic landscape knowledge, knowledge about the climatology and geology of your location, farming knowledge (soil biology, entomology, chemistry, biology, plant physiology, plant genetics, fluid mechanics, engine maintenance, etc) and an artistic approach to it all so it is appealing to those who know nothing about it, not just a certificate from a somewhat radical group ( no offense intended.) Go look at the agriculture classes offered at Cal Poly and see what it takes to succeed in agriculture, because without that knowledge, all the certificates in the world aren't going to get you compatible with Mother Nature, the hardest and toughest "employer" you'll ever have. :)

    California is the 7th largest food producing area in the world, and it's done with traditional, pesticide-using, high-nitrate fertilizer-using, nongreen methods. I get nothing but grief and laughter from the traditional farmers where I live. They make way more money than I do, and probably always will. I was 40 years old before I could afford to buy a farm, and that was after starting full-time work at 19, then taking night classes, buying a small condo, selling it and working my way up. It's taken years to get my fruit trees and perennials to produce food, and are just now starting to really produce. It's a total commitment to something that is not guaranteed, can be taken out by rodents and critters and weather at any moment. I can grow the most beautiful vegetables for miles around, and if people have "already have lettuce" they won't stop to consider any different versions of it unless I cheerfully entice them into it. People in California don't eat a lot of vegetables, except the Asian community. They are super into them. So selling vegetables is hard. They don't sell themselves. And people who don't cook hardly even bother with them. And we're so busy working trying to pay the high price of living in this state we don't have time to do a lot of cooking. Everyone is exhausted and struggling these days. We need to offer them something positive.


    I don't know what it will take to save the world, but mostly what we can hope for is to save our own little spot on the world, and if all the little spots eventually join up, something might change. Who knows? The world is what it is at the time we inhabit the planet. If you want to butt your head against this big capitalistic wall, you're only going to get a headache in Santa Barbara. There's a wealthy, aging clientele in Santa Barbara you could tap into, but not if you bum them out by telling them their lives and the way they live them sucks. :)
     
  20. insipidtoast

    insipidtoast Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2009
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Santa Barbara is tricky for that reason as well. Even if gas prices went up to $15/gallon, the people here have enough wealth to keep filling up. Also, introducing new crops to people who don't normally eat traditional crops, and introducing new food production systems to people who don't even cook for themselves seems like a lot of hard work. As a marketer, you have to go above and beyond the call of duty to not only introduce new crops, but also introduce a new paradigm. Yes, it's a challenge. Especially when you live in a place where people are running around with their lawyers looking for petty excuses to sue their neighbors. Santa Barbara (California) doesn't hint at a society built on mutual aid, but rather one based on mutual fear. So yes, I can really identify with your comment about getting a headache banging my head against the capitalistic wall.

    The past few months have really changed my view on things since I moved back home. I hardly notice anyone with a survival instinct in this town. I guess there's a generalized, vague assumption directing everyone's actions, which is that somehow society will always be the way that it is, and that we could never possibly be subject to any sort of life-threatening, economic calamity. I sense that people are digging their own graves with their lawyers when they could be out uniting with their neighbors to create survival food forests in their open spaces.
     

Share This Page

-->