Permaculture ? don't mention it?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Ev, Jun 2, 2006.

  1. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Gosh, I thought I was sticking up for you mate. The post I was referring to was for me much easier to follow than some of your previous ones. Please don't take offence it wasn't meant in a negative way at all. Least of all would I wish to piss on you. If you were on fire, maybe, but otherwise no.
     
  2. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Everyone :)

    IMO permaculture is everything - the sum total of ALL its adherants, regardless of what personal beliefs they may hold. If we are to ever achieve happy (doesn't EVERYONE want to be?) and sustainable systems of living some time in the future, surely we need to begin to do the work of building a shared understanding and a common goal right now?

    Like our learned friend Sonya says, "There is a place for all gardens and ideas in permaculture".

    We all have a story to tell, information to pass on, a message to share. Every being has a right to exist and to florish, the right to freedom of expression and freedom from ridicule. We will not all necessarily agree with what what each and everyone of us think, act or say. How terribly boring a place to live would it be if we were to all think the same? Allow those that need to express their views to do so in an open and respectful manner, and together we may just find that elusive state of ultimate peace and happiness that we all deserve.

    May we all experience much peace and love during our known (or unknown) lives.

    Cheerio,

    Mark.
     
  3. Woody

    Woody Junior Member

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    This is probably the most interesting thread i've come across!!
    Good points by all.
    I would like to say that people of all types disike others that may be different to them in any way, this does not mean they should/would disagree with permaculture. So it seems that as long as there is a very wide spectrum of people practising this method (permaculture) then at least it will appeal to those like minded to themselves, whether it be a dread locked "alternative" or a "blue rinse" granny.

    Woody
     
  4. PULSE

    PULSE Junior Member

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    Hey fellow Permies!
    One thing for sure is we need to keep using the word 'Permaculture'.
    For a start we need a common banner to congregate under, the word is doing well up to now otherwise you/ we would'nt be on this site, chatting.
    If we were going to change it, to some other english anagram for us arrogant westen scum, 'Sustainable' would have to be a choice for me.
    What about 'Sustculture' 'Suslife'. 'Sustainable' is a pearl the stupidest swine can understand. Permanent...mmm I dunno.
    Anyway for those of us english people,who can grasp the concept 'Permaculture' -do we have a hard time conveying/explaining it to people, or what?! Nevermind actually showing a productive, self maintaining permaculture system as an example. For those people on minimum wage, renting and unable to earn a living from a 'sustainable' occupation, it is a lot harder.
    Imagine how hard it would be to explain permaculture to someone from a war torn,povety stricken country somewhere. If you could speak their language, they probably would grasp the concept alot quicker and easier than some rich cracker who made some equity when the house prices went up and bought his idyllic lifestyle acerage and retired at 55.
    In the past when said , cracker, redneck, dickhead has asked me what I do...
    A: Study Permaculture
    Q: WTF!
    A: Its a design system for sustainable living, taking responsibility...
    Q: Sustaining what!
    A: people and the planet as a whole...
    Q: Are you a tree hugging, greeny, eco warrior, hippy, God botherer, Ganja smoking, dole bludging feral, Abo loving bastard?
    A: I am
    Q: Go get a real job
    A: I'm trying
    Q: Dont you know its survival of the fittest out here?
    A: I know a good soil fertiliser...
    Q: Monsanto's...?
    A: No you...SPLAT!!

    Nah just kidding, but I do get fustrated sometimes. The future generations won't have the luxury to blabber on about what to call Permaculture, it'll simply be 'survival'. Survive like they do in low energy society's all over the world today,but alot harder coz we ruined it all.
    Us in the west have got the most to learn about sustainability. How to get on with one another, sustain our relationships. Work together as communities. Us Permaculturalists are trying to heal this cancer of life, it does'nt matter what other people think of when they hear the word Permaculture. Stay strong, don't let the bastards get you down.

    Good thread though, but seriously we need to start coming together and start something big, so the whole world starts hearing about Permaculture or whatever you want to call it. Collective land buying,lobbying goverments ,creating a mass change. We need a leader (ecodharmamark knows his stuff) to rally behind because,we end up picking on people who like fairies, ganja and goddess/nature worship. Maximum respect to all Permies and of course to Bill and David.
     
  5. Forest Fairy

    Forest Fairy Junior Member

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    What happened in this thread?? It was one of the funniest ones I have read in ages.
    Thanks Tez for always seeing the lighter side of things and cracking me up in the process.
     
  6. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    "A little nonsense now and then,
    Cherished by the wisest men."

    - Willie Wonka
     
  7. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Pulse :)

    Welcome to the PRI forum. So glad you found us. We permies do need to unite and collectively work towards creating positive changes within our local (extending to the global) community.

    The idea of collective land buying/aquiring is one that is constantly on my mind. Banding together with other individuals presents many challenges, like learning to be more tolerant, respectful, and appreciative of diversity, however the benefits are just as numerous - safety, security, companionship, a nurturing environment, and a decreasing of the individual ecological footprint, etc.

    Intentional Community (IC) building is something that I have been giving much thought for quite some time. During the past 6-years I have travelled extensively and have experienced life in many IC's. In the next couple of years I will be formulating a plan to aquire some land and band together with other like-minded individuals/families with the goal of creating a permaculturally-designed eco-village. Many are doing it, many have done it, and many an IC has fallen apart due to a myriad of reasons. But if we don't ever have a go, then we will never know just what it is that we may have missed.

    We have started an online (virtual) IC at the following address. This community is open to anyone and everyone. Feel free to drop by at any time and leave you ideas for others to ponder.

    https://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/icdg/index.html

    Cheerio,

    Mark.
     
  8. RobWindt

    RobWindt Junior Member

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  9. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Rob :)

    Thanks for the reminder re: Intentional Community Victoria. When time prevails I would like to link in with you and perhaps combine resources. Certainly I would lke to remain in contact.

    Cheerio,

    Mark.
     
  10. PeterFD

    PeterFD Junior Member

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    I came across this extraordinary thread from five years ago whilst looking for a reference on James Lovelock. I still don’t know how!

    It certainly cheered-up a cool damp afternoon in the French Base-Alpes.

    So, after five years, has there been a significant change in how permaculturalists are viewed?
     
  11. SueUSA

    SueUSA Junior Member

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    "So, after five years, has there been a significant change in how permaculturalists are viewed?"

    I don't think so. Permaculturists are swimming upstream against a strong current of greed, complacency, heavy indoctrination, and ignorance. And some of them are doing their best to obstruct the spread of the concept, which is intensely counter-productive.

    The main problem is still the nebulous definition: if it can't be simplified down to ten words, it's too complicated to understand, esp here in the U.S.

    The next problem is still the attitude by some that permaculture is a religion, and can only be done a certain way. I suspect that thhis overbearing, pretentious attitude has discouraged many people who could have helped to forward the concept and even come up with some good ideas.

    Some permaculturists really want to be part of a special, annointed group of all-knowing elitists; it would kill them to praise someone who is trying (esp with minimal funds) to accomplish permaculture step by step, doing what they can with what they have, under their local conditions. They insist on tearing down the newcomer's enthusiasm by insisting that they're not doing it exactly the right way, which just happens to be Their Way, the One and Only Way. In other words, The Religion of Permaculture.

    And I doubt that any of that is going to stop.

    Sue
     
  12. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    My wordy lordy! Marko's been here for THAT long...

    There are aspects of permaculture that ring my BS detector bells. Like insisting that you have to have a herb spiral. I think the herb spiral is a good demonstration concept about giving each plant the requirements that it needs, while making it accessible to you through good design. But there are so many other ways to design a space. It's like insisting that all Model T's have to be black.
     
  13. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yes it is a being seen to be different religion by those narrow sighted stalwarts, i have to temper my words as i get nominated as ranting incoherantly and watching too much tv, because i happen to watch things to see, watching galah who is parading themselves in front of a card prompted audience in the pretence of educating people about a concept which p/c is. and yes talk to real people out their and they see it as if your garden doesn't look diffrent and you don't have that hippy appearance then you aint doing p/c. just been up the sunshine coast hinterland way and you can pic a p/cer a 100 meters away, bet they couldn't pick i even knew what p/c is. looking for topics whether on tv or where is a goodway to get general knowledge and history of things, might account for why some deride me because they don't have that knowledge? yes being seen to be different won't win any points with the grass roots of our society and over about 30 years it has fallen flat. seems to be some hidden agendas in play now.

    len
     
  14. PeterFD

    PeterFD Junior Member

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    Hi Sue.

    Rather a sad reflection on five years of permaculture?

    Unfortunately I can’t disagree with anything you’ve said. I only wish I could.

    Hi Len.

    I get the same sense that something is happening in permaculture, at least in terms of the PRI. Any attempt to discover what this could be, no matter how provocative, is met by a wall of silence………… enter the religious cultists with their incoherent ranting and nobodies any the wiser

    However, I get the strange impression something may be about to change ……… wishful thinking?

    In the meantime, a whole new perception of Marko!!!

    Take care,

    Peter
     
  15. PeterFD

    PeterFD Junior Member

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    I’ve read this thread several times now and have found it to be one of the most enlightening, both in turns of how permaculturalists are perceived and why permaculture has never appealed to the mainstream.

    If, after some 30 years, permaculture has found its natural home there would appear little opportunity to change things. However, is this particular perception merely a transitionary phase to maturity?

    Essential reading for all aspiring permaculturists!

    Any chance the moderators could make this thread a “sticky”?
     
  16. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day peter i think you could make it a sticky yourself? look below where you do the psot maybe you could go into edit and change it.

    it needs to get back to grass roots society, it has been elevated to those being at the top are to be worshipped level, the rot set in when the shift went to let's "sell permaculture" came along and when that failed it just got worse. it is not a quazzie political party it is not a religion. and sometimes the subjetivelty in debates (for want of a better word as many seem not to have any general knowledge history of p/c) is such that it verges on being autocratic that is you believe as they do to the top or you almost have no right of reply without pesonal targetting, been there many times.

    they seem to come at things from the wrong end, cause and effect should be the play and not make an effect a cause, like it mostly appears.

    len
     
  17. PeterFD

    PeterFD Junior Member

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    Hi again Len

    No luck trying to make this thread a sticky, although I would have been very surprised if an ordinary member had this facility.

    I’ll just have to depend upon the goodwill of the moderators and hope they can recognise the importance of this thread.

    You make an interesting point on selling permaculture.

    So what’s your opinion on Financial Permaculture, where individuals appear to be encouraged to get into debt by borrowing money from banks?

    I noticed the development of “green incubators”, which essentially seem to be the sort of low start repayment/interest scams that lead to the global financial collapse we are currently suffering the consequences of. Borrow more money than you can afford because your income will always rise in the future. And when it doesn’t, you house, car, etc., will be repossessed. Not really permaculture?
     
  18. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day peter,

    go into debt!!!!??? your kidding surely, no doubt thee are those who would like that to happen. there is nothing in permaculture realy that needs selling, it was presented free nearly 30 years ago, i've had many people disilusioned with the need for a course thing when you can glean what you need for your system from books borrowed from a library. like one person described a course (notmany ever come back to tell of their experience or whatever it might be) it was like being a paying whooffer doing someone elses projects, being fed scant food and learning mostly from reading books in the library on site, in short he said a different sort of paid holiday. i liken it to killing the egg that was going to become the goose that may have laid a golden egg.

    most forums and groups have all but faded away, there is another that seems not to show any political affiliations, that has some grass roots chat wthout the personal targetting that happens here. it's all sinceteh need for greed and power and ego came in.

    in past forums we used to be able to make things sticky or a poll or whatever, might be now not so much freedom of speech is wanted??

    len
     
  19. SueUSA

    SueUSA Junior Member

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    One thing I've seen over the last several years is that there seems to be two entirely different views of permaculture that are literally poles apart...

    One is that everything associated with permaculture should be free. The other is that MoneyMoneyMoney bandwagon where the money is the priority and permaculture is just the vehicle. And I think there are problems with both extremes.

    The last is actually the most simple: I'm against it. Most of the hucksters who want to sell something don't really want to learn all the facets of permaculture, they just want to concentrate on one small section and make money off it. Yesterday they sold stocks and bonds, tomorrow they will be selling something else.

    The first is the one I find the most irritating, and it may be contributing to the stagnation of permaculture.

    Several people on this site have voiced their opinion that permaculture was free, is free, should always be free, and everything associated with it should be free. Well, if you're independently wealthy and a permaculture enthusiast/philanthropist, that's fine. But those are kind of scarce, aren't they?

    From the beginning of farming thousands of years ago, there was a blend of two types of farmers: those who grew food to feed themselves and their families, and those who fed themselves and sold or traded with other people (strangers).

    Now there are small farmers who try to make a living with their knowledge and their land, who are walking a tightrope between good farming and commercial farming. Some of these are gradually turning from 'The Dark Side' (chemical farming) to more benign methods that are showing promise to be safer for the world and are more profitable to them. It's a scary change for them, and I commend them for doing it.

    And there are commercial growers (I won't call them farmers, if you don't mind) who have thousands of acres and grow only one crop, that single crop is controlled and subsidized by the government, they are incredibly in debt to buy more chemicals and bigger machines, but they are in it to make a living.

    Careful, responsible organic Community Supported Agriculture farmers all over the world are investing in their land (small or micro farms) and themselves, growing fruits, vegetables, and nuts and sell them to make a living.

    And then we have willing, hopeful permaculture farmers who read everything they can find, thing they're onto something incredible, but don't have much money, and then they get slammed by the permaculture cultists who tell them that they need to do everything a certain way, and even if they get it working right, they are not ALLOWED to make a profit or a living from their knowledge, sweat and time. They can do it all, but they have to do it for FREE.

    But doing it for free costs money. It costs money for seeds, for water, for some equipment, for power, for additional labor, etc. If they have to build a small dwelling, that costs money, too. They have to pay taxes and buy things that they can't make. So where is the money coming from? From an outside job, that's where. From an 8-10-12-hour job (plus travel time and expenses) that sucks up his time and energy so he gets less done on his permaculture farm. Because he isn't ALLOWED to turn his knowledge, time and sweat into making a profit on something on his farm to support himself and his family.

    Does this make any sense to you? It certainly doesn't to me. Why do all the truths from thousands of years NOT apply to permaculture?

    True, I am from a capitalistic country (yes, obsessively greedy beyond just plain capitalism, and I think that's wrong), and most of you are from a socialistic country where your government takes care of you from birth to death, and you get stuff that you think is for free, and you see that as a right, rather than an exchange for high taxes, which is just another form of purchase price.

    But you want people to replace the government that gives you everything. But why should they? Why should someone spend 18 hrs a day lovingly working on their permaculture farm (no matter how large or small), just to give away their knowledge, time and produce for free? Where is the sense in that? I don't see it.

    If you are one that feels like that, are YOU willing to build the new permaculturist a small house so he has someplace to shelter his family? Are YOU going to give him the money for soil tests and cover crop seeds? Are YOU going to buy him a decent well and pump? Are YOU going to pay for the books or the internet services so he can learn what is going on in the world of permaculture? YOU WON'T??? But you expect HIM to buy all those things, just to give you his produce for free? To teach you how to graft trees, and what cover crops are best for your place?

    And THAT may be the goblin in the permaculture closet. People say he should do it, but he needs to do it by someone else's lights, with someone else's ideas, but with his own time and money, and he isn't allowed to make a living from it. That sounds like one of the definitions of insanity, to me.

    Do you think this kind of concept is attractive to new permaculturists? If you do, bang your head with a big rock and maybe it will help to line up your common sense cells properly. WHY SHOULD SOMEONE WORK FOR FREE?

    Let's get away from the rigid self-proclaimed rules of permaculture. Let's protect the land and improve the soil. Let's encourage other people to work out their form of permaculture, and not insist that they adhere to ours. Let's help each other with information, seed exchanges, cuttings and encouragement. Let's spread the word on how well this person is handling his land, the quality of his produce, and the happiness of his life. Let him do it his way --- you may end up learning something from him... for free.

    Sue
     
  20. PeterFD

    PeterFD Junior Member

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    Hi Len

    I was thinking more of the seemingly new breed of Financial Permaculturalists who appear to teach permaculture within the context of an “enterprise” in which debt is incorporated.

    Hi Sue

    Well, you seem to have covered most of the ills surrounding permaculture at the present moment in time!

    You are correct in so far as many European countries have adopted some form of socialism. However, we tend to view this as a means of “fair distribution of surplus”, so everyone has a right to healthcare, education, welfare, etc., regardless of personal wealth.

    Equally, within the European Community we have the Common Agricultural Policy that was established to help keep farmers on the land and provide them with a viable income.

    We could spend the rest of our lives debating these points with no real benefit to permaculture.

    One thing that does intrigue me is your view that some permaculturalists are able to exert a controlling influence over other permaculturalists.

    Having a small goat farm located on the side of a mountain in the Base-Alpes of France, I have never met a permaculturalist and my contact with permaculturalists is limited to e-mail and hyperspace. The idea that I am somehow going to be restrained in what I can do, or in gaining a living from permaculture techniques seems extraordinary.

    Are things in America so different?

    Any chance you could give some more insight into what is actually happening? =-
     

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