Permaculture ? don't mention it?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Ev, Jun 2, 2006.

  1. Ev

    Ev Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I hate to mention the word, before I read Bills work I had no idea what it meant, and falsely associated it with some negative connotations, which I believe most people do.

    Unfortunately I came to believe permaculture was some over rated gardening system as a result of well intentioned but misguided people telling me ideas about amazing worm farming schemes, special weed free garden beds, spiral pattern soil mounds rock patterns etc who I usually later found had only limited gardening experience with drug cultivation.
    Many of these "permaculture people" also had body odour problems, believed in astrology, spirit world stuff etc and disrespected themselves with alcohol and cigarettes, it really put me off anything that said permaculture for a couple of years,

    It was years before I met someone to dispell the myths and for me to pick up a book(Thanks W.Australia perm assoc great book)

    So now when I represent my house, garden and lifestyle to people I prefer to describe it rather than use this coined term;
    Things like I am trying to create an automated garden that gives me some food, recycles my food scraps and beautifies my land, allows me amusing tasty animals etc without detriment to the planet unlike other gardens that involve nasty chemicals, lawnmowers and generally time consuming boring work that is never finished because the garden is ecologically unsuited to where it is located.

    I guess my point is to show people the right way you have to avoid jargon which could be misconstrued, especially in this lifestyle gardening area... I and most the people that count will not embrace something they associate with drug smoking hippy dropouts.

    Permaculture Yay
     
  2. Douglas J.E. Barnes

    Douglas J.E. Barnes Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well, it doesn't help that permaculture is so hard to define. I get the best understanding telling people that it's a design science for creating environment-enhancing, sustainable human environments - creating ecosystems for people.

    "Many of these "permaculture people" also had body odour problems, believed in astrology, spirit world stuff etc and disrespected themselves with alcohol and cigarettes, it really put me off anything that said permaculture for a couple of years"

    Oh god, don't get me started on that one. You've found my bugbear. I don't know what Perth is like, but a lot of the permaculture courses in North America involve dancing (What the...?) and praying to the Earth spirit (What the...?). And I kid you not, one of the prominent teachers in the United States is... wait for it... a witch. (To be fair, I don't know what it is the witch teaches in her courses. The craziness I've seen in other courses.) Where does this come from? Bill Mollison is the guy who started the permaculture movement going around teaching courses around the world. I know his style and I find it incredible that after taking one of his courses anyone would think the design science of permaculture has anything to do with praying to the sun god.
     
  3. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    1,536
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    DOUGLAS,

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA >BREATH< HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!~

    I have seen a bit of the earth spirit thing, too, at a few different courses. But, in its defence, many people, especially zEuropeans who are outside of Europe (white people in US, Canada and Australia, for example) lack may of the important grounding rituals that connect us to the earth. Ifbeing a "witch" creates that connection, or somehow makes up for the lack of spiritual relationship with the earth tha other cultures have, that is an understandable thing.

    I find that more acceptable than having people in the great Europeab diaspora (most of us) try to emulate other cultures practices, through imitation or cultural appropriation (ie, white people in the US who follow Hopi medicine men around, or grovel at the robe hem of Guru Soandso, chant the name of Swai Whatshisbutt, or the occasional Round Up enthusiast who thinks he Rasta!).

    Furrther to that, in accord to the original premise of this thread, I usually do not use the term permaculture in conversation unless I am sure the person I am talking with has a sound understanding of permaculture already because so many people interpret permaculture so many different ways. If they have no idea, it leads to lots of questions, which take more than five minutes to answer. If, worse yet, they have an idea that permaculture is some kind of hippy potsmoking spiritual crystal gazing living in a tipi farming, then the rest of what you are saying has been discredited already.

    Just m y experience...
     
  4. Douglas J.E. Barnes

    Douglas J.E. Barnes Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hmmm. Kind of like the way I quote Noam Chomsky's sources and rarely Noam Chomsky himself. Just his name sets off the crazies.
     
  5. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,922
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Dear All

    When questioned by interested others (why else would they bother to question if they were not interested?) as to why I do the things I do, I simply and honestly answer their queries by stating that I am a permaculturalist. This response can then lead to several scenarios:

    Sometimes the individual will ask me what a permaculturalist is, and I usually respond by saying that a permaculturalist is a person who practices permaculture. This often leads to the individual asking me what is permaculture, and I usually state that permaculture is an anagram for 'permenant (agri)culture'. If the individual persists (and I certainly hope that they do) by asking me to explain further, or if I see a lack of comprehension in their features, I may continue to describe to the individual just exactly what I believe permaculture to be.

    When I find myself in the situation where an individual has expressed enough interest in the concept of permaculture to have come to this point in the conversation I will always try to stop what ever it is I am doing and give this person my undivided attention. I tell them that permaculture is a design system which in practice allows me to care for the planet and for all that live upon/within it (See Holmgren's, The Three Ethics of Permaculture, in Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability, 2003).

    If the person wishes for further elucidation, then I will invite them into my home and show them first-hand how the principles (See Holmgren's, The Twelve Principles of Permaculture, in Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability, 2003) of permaculture are being integrated into my life, and how I believe I'm helping to make the world a better place to live.

    More often than not though, the people whom I initially have the wonderful opportunity to inform about the ethics and principles of permaculture already have some personal belief of what permaculture is. This often means that I am correcting ignorant assumptions such as, "But are not all permaculturalists pot-smoking hippies?", or "Is not permaculture just another form of organic gardening?", and my personal favourite, "What are you, some sort of freak!?".

    These scenarios give me no-end of pleasure as I deftly weave between providing accurate information; correcting ingrained prejudgices; and offering a constructive message that permaculture is the answer to any questions that one may ask when wondering about the future.

    I think we as permaculturalists are situated in the perfect position to take control of the situation when the collapse of the post-modern culture happens. We are on the verge, and we owe it to ourselves to ensure that we continue to arm ourselves with the best defences available - knowledge and wisdom.

    After a hard day's work on the site or in the classroom, I can tend to smell a bit. Body odour is just one other way that I provide people with the opportunity to gain insight into the permaculturalist's way of life. I once smoked copious amounts of pot and drank similar amounts of alcohol. All of these experiences have helped to make me the person I am today - a permaculturalist.

    I practice a form of inner-understanding (some call it Buddhism) that mirrors and complements my practice of permaculture. Am I too guilty of shunning "science" in favour of "prayer" and thus given the entire ethos of permaculture a bad name? I think not.

    Some five years ago, after thirty-plus years of searching for the 'meaning of life' (a journey that took me through many and varied political, social and religious ways of life), I came to the realisation that no matter what I say, no matter what I do, or no matter what I think, if others are determined to kill themselves and ultimately kill the planet through living unsustainable lives, then there is nothing I can do about this situation other than live a life which is the exact opposite of theirs and hope that they then see my life as being happier than their own and that they eventually choose to adopt my way of life for their own.

    I practice 'permaculture by stealth'. I never offer information unless is it asked for, and when I do offer this information I always ensure that it is the best that ia available, and that I have enough time to give it. I believe that if the general community have misunderstood the message that permaculture has to offer, then we the message-givers need to improve this area of our practice. Blaming the ignorant for their lack of knowledge does nothing to further the cause of permaculture, being tolerant of their misguided views and being compassionate towards them as individuals will. Show kindness and by this very simple act you are indeed practicing permaculture from the very begining.

    Cheerio to you all, and may you all experience much happiness and peace in your respective journeys through life?

    Mark :)
     
  6. PeterM

    PeterM Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2005
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    No need to lecture

    Reminds me of an old Japanese poem I once read by Zen poet Ryokan:

     
  7. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,585
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

    Fills his cone peice....Lights his lighter,and inhales deeply...Then exhales slowly..... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

    Good morning MANS..How are you all today......

    Todays gardening lesson........how to sow cucumber seeds and cone on at the same time...remember to use clean water in your bong,so its safe to water the newly sown seed.(very important)

    2nd lesson for the day.......How to pray to the Sun goddess on a wet day,using a smokers pipe,running around naked,and climaxing on a moss covered log that faces due North.....

    3 lesson...Getting naked and facing the rising full moon ,stripping off and having the customary monthly air shower.(no point in airing too often)
    Pleas take note not to be naked in front of young children or chickins..
    Some roosters may take humbridge at being confronted by a bigger cock.

    LUNCH.......Mull cookies or choice of Joint da joir....Or for the health concious Partner Swapping in the Aquaponics system....

    After lunch......A time to relax,meditate,masturbate,or assimulate.

    AfternoonSession....Sowing,seeding,cultivation.and harvesting of various strains of mull,Followed by a Group disscussion,on the merits Hydroponics vs Natural in ground methods of production.....

    Early evening Courses....
    How to tell if your children are not taking drugs....
    How to clean blocked pipes.(pipe cleaners or coat hangers)
    How to stay awake watching TV after smoking joints.

    Worried about high OIL prices......Produce your OWN Oil. B.Y.O.B.

    Course starting times High noon,or when ever you get here man,you know,just get here when u can.You decide,I dunno man its at my place this week isnt it.I dunno thought it was your place.

    If ya cant find our very happy group, just bring a sniffer dog with ya thell find it.

    Tezza
     
  8. Douglas J.E. Barnes

    Douglas J.E. Barnes Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't know whether to laugh or cry...
     
  9. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Peter and Mark, I think you've summed it up nicely.

    Permaculture is, first and formost, a rational system of design, arrived at via detailed scientific study.

    I like to relate the anecdote told by co-founder of Permaculture, Tasmanian academic and designer, Doctor Bill Mollison, about his fairy-eating episode at Findhorn. Made me laugh. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
  10. Jim Bob

    Jim Bob Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I usually explain it this way. It's a bit lengthy but simple.

    "Permaculture is a system of designing stuff. It's like architecture or engineering. It's how can we design stuff so that it doesn't just last, but it grows?"

    If they ask for an example, I go on.

    "For example, think of crops. When you grow something, to grow it needs to take stuff in. So imagine you're a wheat farmer. When wheat grows, to build up those stalks and that grain, it takes nitrogen from the soil. After you've grown wheat in the ground, there's less nitrogen in the soil. So if you just put another crop of wheat there, well next time it won't grow as much, and the time after that, even less.

    "What many farmers do is to add nitrogen from somewhere else - fertiliser. That's fine, but something else you can do is to grow beans. Because beans add nitrogen to the soil, and they don't do very well in high-nitrogen soils.

    "So you have a cycle - wheat, then beans, then wheat, then beans. The wheat makes the nitrogen go down to where it's comfortable for the beans, then then beans make the nitrogen go up to where it's comfortable for the wheat.

    "And as well, instead of just one crop of wheat a year, you get one crop of wheat, then one crop of beans. Whereas if you just add fertiliser you'd only get one crop of wheat, and that's that. And the fertiliser costs money. So in this case, permaculture says, instead of getting just one crop and spending money, why not get two crops and earn money?

    "So what we have here is that the wheat and the beans complement each-other, they help each-other out, and you don't have to buy fertiliser. Because you don't have to buy fertiliser, no-one has to use power and chemicals to make it. So not only did you save money, but you saved electricity, too. So then we don't have to build another power plant, and we don't have to burn as much coal, and then we don't have to worry so much about global warming. So the farmer isn't just helping his farm, he's helping the world. And of course making some food and money along the way.

    "That's what permaculture is about. It's about finding little ways to do things more efficiently. And those efficiencies often go a long way they help the whole system, not just your little area. It turns out that you can do more than just swap crops around. For example, you know how basil and tomato taste really good together in bruschetta? Well, it turns out that they grow well together, too. If you plant some basil next to a tomato plant, you get more basil and more tomatos than you would if you planted them separately. They complement each-other.

    "So permaculture is a system of design where we try to get things to complement each-other like that. It's not just gardens, it's houses and roads and cities, too. It can be small or big in scale."

    It's lengthy but simple, using examples anyone can understand.

    Permaculture attracts nutters, unfortunately. But then, all kinds of philosophies and ideals do, because a nutter is often attracted to a One True Way. Fortunately, most of the nutters don't actually do anything. I've yet to meet a "witch" who has ever shovelled cow shit. They like the idea of happy growing nature, but the actual sweat tends to put them off.

    Many of us may have seen John Seymour's famous book on being self-sufficient. I'll always remember him making a snarky little comment about the city-slicker hippy types who buy a piece of land and sit on it doing nothing and watching it grow thistles. Better they go back to the city and let someone more productive have the land;)
     
  11. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    At Melbourne university last year, I was asked by a lab worker what the course was all about. I was struggling to sum it up in a few words - you all know the sort of thing - when Bill walked by.

    "Bill," I said, "I'm just trying to explain to my friend here, what Permaculture is all about. Could you help me out?"

    "Are you?" Bill replied. "Good luck." And he walked on.

    The old bastard. I still struggle with glib summaries - A system of design for sustainable living, drawing on patterns found in nature. er, um. It's more than organic gardening, it's, it's um.....

    For certain, it's best not to start unless you have their genuine interest, and undivided attention. :?
     
  12. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    What a good thread. :lol:
    In my experience Permies are as diverse as people. I have personally met people throught Permaculture that I don't think I would have met otherwise. From the fruit loops to the retired army seargants to the little old ladies that propagate trees by the millions, to converted chemical farmers. Permaculture has a pretty universal appeal I think.
    I went through (sometimes I am still in) a phase where I was embarassed to talk about Permaculture though, because so far it is so much talk. Let's get some really productive systems going and take it out of the realm of a thesis, and then it will be a lot easier to talk about, because it will speak for itself...
     
  13. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,585
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well its allmost 20 years since I got into Permaculture.. read 20 years.

    Since that time the world has changed as hell of a lot..Unfortunatly a lot of things,well just keep on going on..ie Wars,Liberals in Power.More wars.even more wars,and the envioroment is STILL GETING WORSE...I got upset when in 88 the were saying Brazil was loosing Rainforest at a footy oval a minute or something crazy like that maybe even every second,I dont recall.

    Well bad news is they still doing it but now the oval has a parking area,shops,and a few streets in areas going in the same time span..... Have we stopped de Forestation.....NO %^&*()% way.

    Have we stopped Wars " " " " " ".....Ditto

    Do we still vote with our brains or our wallets......Same as above...

    Have we made any real progress.........NAH.........," " "

    Listen If Bill cant answer the subject thats filled his mind for 30/40 years, In a sentance containing les then 5000 words,what chance has anyone else.......

    Stop Trying to sound like an Expert and Just do it as You see fit...Bill dosnt set hard and fast rules,So why should we.Bill Doesnt talk about the life cycle of a carrot or a cucumber Or how to make nice smelling compost...

    The Trouble with Permaculture as i see it(and i aint found any)...It isnt Permaculture thats wrong, its different people interpritations,and we all know how expert the average person is dont we...

    Permaculture is growing carrots,nice compost,naked people worshiping the sun and Moon..Permaculture Is saving the enviouroment,recycling,Saving the Whales,Saving the Air and water,Its about putting Food and a bit of control into Peoples lives....Thankfully its still legal to grow veges and run a few chooks....but beware They will stop that if they can.......

    In my first 6 months of Permie dom I asked all those questions on vege growing,compost recipes etc etc etc..AND was told Politly that theres more to Permaculture then veges,I asked as to what and was given a long long List.....Actually Im not a vege Lover as a forced fed vege eater as a kid Ive been enjoying a not much vege diet for 30 odd years.....Now to Some of you will think Im a bit Loopy...Thats ok .Called worse then that lolol.

    I pride myself as being a rabid Permaculturist(just ask anyone who knows me well)But were not all carrot munching, bean chomping long Haired drop kicks of society..No I got short Hair :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Lets stop knocking People for having a go huh?

    Who cares if we dress funny,or smoke wacky backy.or dance naked in the moonlight WHO CARES HOW just do it.Just BE IT...


    Tezza
     
  14. Ev

    Ev Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Nice input thanks everyone

    Jim Bob once again nice "An architect" an architect you sound like in many designs, both literary and ecological
    I will use that thankyou again
     
  15. Douglas J.E. Barnes

    Douglas J.E. Barnes Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    "At Melbourne university last year, I was asked by a lab worker what the course was all about. I was struggling to sum it up in a few words - you all know the sort of thing - when Bill walked by.

    "Bill," I said, "I'm just trying to explain to my friend here, what Permaculture is all about. Could you help me out?"

    "Are you?" Bill replied. "Good luck." And he walked on."


    You never told me that one, Alex. That's hilarious!


    "Let's get some really productive systems going and take it out of the realm of a thesis, and then it will be a lot easier to talk about, because it will speak for itself..."


    There are a few half decent case studies available on the web, but I think we all need to do a far better job of documenting our work - good clear before and after shots with the after part having a follow-up being more than just one week or six weeks after. And the presentation needs to be professional. There are about 5 well laid-out permaculture sites on the entire web. The rest, choosing the Permaculture Activist as one example, are living museums to how sites were laid out in 1997.

    Some decent case studies are available at https://www.fullcirclellc.com/casestudy/case.html and the Jordan case study by Mohammed Ayesh on this site is very good. But something with more graphic presentation would be better. I'm hoping to get one case study up on ecoedge.ca (which is still in development) this summer followed by another in late autumn.
     
  16. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Douglas, sorry mate, but I have visited farms on the ground that would document themselves as successful Permaculture designs who still bring in most of the main foods to feed the farm workers in the back of a station wagon. All lovely organic grains no doubt, but grown in monocultural, fossil fuel dependent systems.
    I'm not saying that Permaculture hasn't had its successes, its just that it is taking its first few infant steps at this point in history.
     
  17. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think Bill was on his way to lunch, or something. However he did give us all a bit of a hard time about our general state of illiteracy and ingnorance on many matters, and he expects us to stand on our own two feet, pretty damn quick.

    "Have you read Virgil.....? No.....? Illiterate bastards."

    If Permaculture is to make an impression on the mainstream it has be able to demonstrate its successes in a recognisable format. Good documentation of key demonstration sites is one of the keys to that. I've been handing out copies of the Global Gardener and directing people to the Lawton's work in Jordan for some time now, but I need to be able to show a greater number of recent successes to prove my assertion that permaculture actually works.

    Anything that "gets close to nature" is going to attract the "fringe element" of unwashed moon-dancing pot-smoking fairy worshippers. But I often find them better company than the gun-toting neo-nazis who are engaged in an ongoing chemical war on nature. Somewhere in the middle of this confusion, however, there is a sustainable culture that has room for everybody. It's always a marvellous time for a moondance, after all. :lol:

    Dr James Lovelock has similar problem with some of the new agers who jumped onto the bandwagon of his Gaia theory, but he's gratefull to anyone who pays attention to it. I was talking to a scientist recently who said he was sceptical of Lovelock's theory. On further questioning, though, it was the people attracted to it that put him off; he didn't really know much about it.

    There is a huge chasm to cross, and time is running out.
     
  18. Douglas J.E. Barnes

    Douglas J.E. Barnes Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    "Have you read Virgil.....? No.....? Illiterate bastards."

    Well, two can play that game, so I just ignored it when he did it. "Have you read Yoshikawa? No? Ignorant bastard!"


    "Anything that "gets close to nature" is going to attract the "fringe element" of unwashed moon-dancing pot-smoking fairy worshippers. But I often find them better company than the gun-toting neo-nazis who are engaged in an ongoing chemical war on nature."

    This is true. I'll take hippies over fascistis any day of the week. But if your goal is to spread an idea, you have to present it in an appealing way.


    "Dr James Lovelock has similar problem with some of the new agers who jumped onto the bandwagon of his Gaia theory, but he's gratefull to anyone who pays attention to it. I was talking to a scientist recently who said he was sceptical of Lovelock's theory. On further questioning, though, it was the people attracted to it that put him off; he didn't really know much about it."

    That's the thing. A trained scientist is supposed to know better than to think that way. But the reality is that is the way some people think.


    "There is a huge chasm to cross, and time is running out."

    I hope I don't come across as arguing here. Time is running out, as you say. And people are going to do what they are going to do. I'm not going to waste time worrying about it or fighting it. I'll just be going out and doing my tiny bit to steer us out of this mess.

    Ultimately, I have my own standards to meet. I have to have my own work well documented in a presentable manner, never mind others. I'm glad I put that down in print, so if I don't live up to my standard, people can embarrass me into action. [That's a request for you all to embarrass me into action if need be. :wink: ]
     
  19. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You're right, of course. I've read read neither Virgil or Yoshikawa. :(
    But I'm not a strong swimmer, either.....

    Three scholars decided to cross a river. They asked a boatman to help them cross the river. The boatman was glad to oblige them. As the boat sailed out, one scholar asked the boatman: Have you read Vedas? The boatman humbly replied "No Sir". He felt very ashamed. The scholar rubbed it in. "A quarter of your life is wasted". After they sailed a little further, the second scholar asked: "Have you read Upanishads?" The boatman felt further small. "No Sir". The scholar said contemptuously: "Half your life is wasted". They sailed halfway into the river. The third scholar asked, "At least have you read Puranas?" The boatman felt totally humiliated. "No sir, not even that". "Then three quarter of your life is a waste". By then they hit a whirlpool. The boat started sinking. The boatman, for the first time, asked the scholars: "Sir, do you people know how to swim?" All the scholars said "No" in total panic. "All your lives are a waste now sir", said the boatman and leapt out of the boat.

    From: https://www.ddsindia.com/www/video.htm

    It doesn't hurt to look in a mirror, and laugh. :lol: :lol: 8)
     
  20. Douglas J.E. Barnes

    Douglas J.E. Barnes Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2005
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    "Are you a good swimmer? No? You illswimmerate bastard!"

    Sorry, couldn't resist.
     

Share This Page

-->