Permaculture Design Course - How was yours run?

hi,

yes, the aim is to link everywhere from that site. really spread the love around. it needs to be a good resource that you'd like to come back to again and again.

done!

fantastic idea. is anyone else up for doing this too? (bear in mind that it needs to be your own content you're using.)

well - that would be the ultimate, wouldn't it? but after working with tagari for a little while i can tell you that selling books is their bread and butter. i'm pretty sure that they're not going to be happy with people - even us - posting digital copies of their Bible up on the net for free use, no matter how good-intentioned our motivation.

i think we can create something better though. we already have the best permaculture forum and collection of people on the 'net. i think we can create a wonderful, open, accessible and lasting permaculture Bible of our own that's free for use and download by anyone! what's more, anyone can edit it too and add articles, on anything they think relevant.

so - anyone who's keen, head over to the Permapedia (link's in the menu above) and click the edit link on any page you want to add info to. i'm going to create a new thread now just for the permapedia. see y'all over there. 8)

cheerio

 

There is always one.
Richard I did not say the course was ratshit nor infer it. 'That's your opinion and an opinion, I might add, for a course you've never attended.

The purpose for this thread - which now appears to have rambled off topic - was to emphasise that I am seeking understanding through questioning and highlighting rather than resorting to what appears to be a popular method when criticism is involved: pointing the finger.

We are being issued with proper PDC certificates endorsed by the Permaculture Institute.

You cite names and yes, I would agree that all are experienced. But it's one thing to bear a wealth of knowledge. To be able to pass it on is another thing entirely.

One thing a lot of people misunderstand about teaching is that it's easy to do. The next is that anyone can do it. Not true. There's a reason why teachers in this country are registered by the Board of Education including trade groups such as hairdressers (who attend teacher's college for twelve months on top of their collected experience), TAFE instructors and anyone in a govt accredited course. Not that I want to be embroiled in red tape but formalised training for a definitive length of time to a standard set of guidelines run by an organisation that regularly enforces these guidelines is there for a very good reason. And the lack of this really does show up in a PDC.

This is not to suggest that all permaculture teachers are ratshit either. That is not the point I am trying to illustrate.

What I am saying is that there is no sufficient teacher education in permaculture to warrant the title of teacher with the exception of accredited permaculture courses run by TAFE. The instructors there have to have formal teaching qualifications accredited by the State and they are periodically assessed on performance.

The lack of this standard blatantly shows itself on my current PDC.

So yes, I'd like to know whether the Permaculture Institute has any clout.

 

Well, if enough course participants report back to Bill and Lisa that Northey St are doing "ratshit" courses, (sorry, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, that was simply my interpretation of your evaluation - what word would you use?) then I would bet my left big toenail that they would stop issuing the certificates until such a time that their confidence in the teachers and the course structure was renewed.
Of course, different styles of teaching and learning work for different people. I remember attending a workshop on wormfarming held by Richard Nielson at NSCF, in which he was very lyrical in his description of the biology of worms and their role in soil health and by extension planetary life in general. I was transfixed. I have been a participant in many wormfarming workshops, and thought I didn't really have anything else to learn. "Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."

Do you think that the rest of your course's participants were similarly let down? If so, you really should take the time to communicate your dissatisfaction to the management of NSCF, and the Institute, in my opinion.

Murray, Bill and Lisa's bread and butter surely should come from their potato patch and their rhubarb corner. Whatever happened to "Share the surplus" eh? What do we have in surplus at this moment, if not knowlege? What do we need to do with that knowlege at this critical point in history but share it?

Fair enough, when Bill first published that book the internet was a twinkling in Al Gore's buddies eye. Binding books and trucking them around the planet was necessary then, and it costs money, so he had to charge. Since then, the earth has gotten even more rooted, (excuse language) and that book is more important than ever. We have the means to make it available in 3rd world countries or anywhere else instantaneously. If we don't take advantage of that technology we aren't serious about responding to the crisis.

I would pay another $50 if I could download it whenever I need it. I would probably pay $50 every 5 years just to have access to it without carrying it around. I reckon Yoot Pansuwan and his ilk should get it for free.

 

couldn't agree more richard.

 

Richard, how about "dissapointing"? or "not up to expectation"? 8)

Murray, how about a format that cross-references the information on the wiki to the manual? That is, say I'm reading Basic Essentials for the Equitorial House - cool storage strategies, on p265. I want to know more about it, and see how others have applied the theory, so I go to the wiki and look it up. No need to infringe copyright. In fact, it would boost sales of the manual, I reckon. The one supposrts the other, like a guild. Both benefit, and the user, too.

Also, maybe it's time Bill considered a CD rom version of the Manual?

 

...... with hypertext and relevant web liks. :wink:

 

It's been possible for quite some time to do a PDC online at:

Permaculture Visions

who run a course specifically designed for remote students with a curriculum endorsed by Tagari and the Permaculture Institute.

It's probably worth mentioning that the accreditation of both teachers and curriculums has changed in recent times due to the Institute getting some complaints about how courses had differing standards and levels of teaching - some students felt they had been let down and their money was not well spent. The Institute is trying to address this situation by personally vetting the curriculums of all teachers before they grant accreditation.

Please note, I'm not trying to cast aspersions on the course(s) anyone who is not accredited runs (I'm sure many are great courses run by great people), but you can be sure you're getting what is intended by the PDC if you use an accredited teacher, which may be helpful for those considering doing a PDC in the future.

The accredited teachers (and by default accredited curriculums) are available at:

Permaculture Institute Accredited Teachers

As far as I'm aware, all course notes from the Permaculture Visions PDC are given to the student either in PDF format or as a print copy, so that means after your course you always have all the information you've learned on hand. It's probably also worth mentioning that all PDCs I've heard of are (at least to some degree) based around Bill Mollison's book:

Permaculture: A Designers Manual

which I add for those who can't afford to do a course or don't wish to at this time, but do want to learn more about Permaculture.

The Permaculture Visions Course gives remote students or those unable to find an accredited course in their area the opportunity of doing their PDC online in their own time (no deadlines etc.), with full opportunity to ask questions using their own photos, discuss ideas/concepts etc., while the teacher (April Sampson-Kelly) is a long time Permaculture exponent who is both knowledgeable in a wide range of relevant subjects and a great person from all the dealings I've had with her.

 

Jez,

Good words.

Also, and thankyou, I can finally do a PDC sometime by correspondence. I havent done one before due mainly to family & business committments. It always seemed rather selfish of me to disappear for 2 weeks on holiday to do a PDC. I had always dreamed of taking the whole family. Do they let kids on PDC's?

I have to add that one of my fears was that I would be a long way from home and committed to doing a PDC and someone would say something like 'Pisces is a water sign and that means Pisceans are good at growing mungbeans' or someone would start on about witchcraft or teepees. This sort of thing, in the middle of a PDC, would have driven me nuts.

floot

 

I have to agree with Floot. When I did my trade training, there was no talk about Taureans making good Blacksmiths, or Capricornians being better toolmakers. That sort of stuff makes interesting conversation in the breaks, but has no place in a PDC. I suppose that's why I chose the PDC I took, to get the message "from the horse's mouth" without unecessary additions. But it suited me to take the time off, and although I would have liked more of a hands-on practical element, I felt it was worthwhile.

An online correspondence course would be just the ticket for a lot of people, and I suppose a small group could study it together, while developing a joint project of their own, which would be a lot of fun, as well.

BTW - Love the Permapedia Murray, great stuff!

 

Has anyone here Done the correspondence courses with April...

Ive sat around trying to decide about the course it looks great flicking thru the web pages..

April posts here sometime could she or someone give us a few pointers

Tezza

 

Hi Boab,

I am sorry that you are having such a crap experience. I was actually thinking of doing the course at Northey St too. Instead I did mine at Crystal Waters and it was absolutely fantastic. Originally I was trying to do one with Morag and Evan. I had seen Morag speaking at our local hall and she is a truly inspirational human being. When I called Crystal Waters they told me she was having a baby and would not be running courses this year. That was how I got to do my course with Max Lindegger the Legend that he is.

I have answered your questionaire and would really encourage you if you can afford it to try and do a course with either Morag or Max, or Robyn Clayfield who is just gorgeous too.

1. How long did your course go for?
Course was for 2 weeks.

2. Where was it held?
Crystal Waters Eco-Village.

3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?
Am assuming so. They knew loadsastuff.

4. Did you break for public holidays?
Wasn't any hols. Even had to work on Sat. Was a good day though, went to Eumundi and Kondalilla Falls. Got Sunday off though and came back to Bris for the day to go to the Cricket. Not very permie, but good fun.


5. How was your course structured? (Did it have any structure?)
It was extremely structured which was the best part about it. There was certainly plenty of time for Q's etc. However, the group were fantastic and very aware of keeping their more specific questions for dinner times and night time. We spent alot of time in the evenings after class sitting around fixing all of the problems in the world.


6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?
I think that it is one of those things that you get out as much as you put in. Our group were all very enthusiastic to learn and share. There was alot of work to be done more so in the 2nd week. I spent a couple of nights till midnight working on our project and up again at Sparrows to get it done. We presented our final group designs on the last day and received overall feedback for the whole project. However, Max and Lloyd were on hand if we needed direction.


7. Did you feel you learned a lot?

I learnt sooo much. I loved my garden before I went there but had little knowledge about living sustainably. Because I already have a house on my property, the building side of things went a little over my head ( not too difficult to do), but I just could not get enough of everything else. Especially the soil component. It is my passion. Afterall, "Soil is life"....

8. How much did your course cost?
All up the course was I think about $1500.

9. Did you feel it was value for money?
Incredible value for money. That included all of your food and accom and the course. Accom was bunkhouse style which was fine. Clean, tidy. Hot showers and great food.

10. Would you do it again?
Absolutely without a doubt. I would like to try a course with Morag and Evan.
I have done a number of courses with Jade Woodhouse at Eudlo who to me is one of the most sharing, caring and knowing people on the planet. If you ever get a chance to do a course with her, I can guarantee you will not be disappointed.
Unfortunately for us she now resides in Dorrigo NSW, but every now and then she comes to the Sunshine Coast. Check her website for details.
https://www.simplynaturalorganic.com.

Hope things get better for you. Thank god for places like these though. The people that so willingly impart their knowledge on these forums and probably the best teachers we can have.

 

Hi Jules,

Glad to hear Jade Woodhouse's name pop up. I actually bought her (and Paul's) place at Eudlo and I am also a student of hers.

She is still coming up here and teaching - her next course is planned for after the Qld Home and Garden Expo in early July - which by the way will have a HUGE organic and permaculture section if you can get there - lots of speakers, lots of demos.

And that was Jade's strength, I did an intro to Permaculture with her, but the rest of her courses were all about practical ways to get started in p/c - how to make compost, how to worm farm, how to start a vegie patch, green manure crops, chook care, food forests etc etc - all really good stuff to inspire people to go home and get started.

We welcome her back to our place when she can make it to continue to offer this important service to the community. But student demand far outways her time availability - since moving to Dorrigo to 125 acres, she has bought some cows for milking and their manure, so she can't get back up here as often as we need her.

She is trying to set up courses from the Dorrigo property - so I urge you, if you can get there - to do one.

Jade is the best educator I have ever encountered - and I've done a lot of courses at various levels (community based through to post grad uni degrees).

With Jade's support I plan to continue to offer courses from our property in the future - I'm just starting to teach a few small courses to small groups, but I feel I need to do a PDC and Robin Clayfield's permaculture education course before I can really start teaching properly and to offer people the best value for money...

A PDC is great and gives you the certificate and also can go toward a Diploma, but I think also doing practical short courses in different areas with different teachers adds to your learning experience and gives you a more rounded knowledge base.

If anyone is interested in doing Jade's courses (either late July or early Aug) let me know. It isn't set in concrete yet, but will probably be two days of garden design, setting up a garden, planting, seeds, seedlings etc etc, then on the third day, composting to make humus, worm farming and green manure crops.

Also, the Chevallum Permaculture Group is offering 'Practical Permaculture Home Gardening Workshops" in August, run by Janet Millington, which will be accredited toward your overall p/c quals.

Cheers,

Sonya.

 

Hi Sonya,

I so wanted to buy that place, but already had my little paradise. Can't be greedy now. I knew it would go to someone who would love it as much as Jade and Paul. Like you, I cannot speak highly enough of Jade.
I found every course I attended of hers was just so packed full of fantastic info, and there was lots and lots of hands on as well. I am such a visual person and to me I absorb so much more.
I wish you all the very best with your plans to continue offering Simply Natural as a living classroom.

No doubt I will catch you in the airwaves very soon and certainly at the Gardening Expo.

J

 

Hey Jules,

I'll be at the Garden Expo - I'm helping Jade over the three days so come up and introduce yourself it should be a great event.

Cheers,

Sonya.

 

Hi Boab,

I am one of those course members at Northey Street, who has "dropped out" for all the reasons you mentioned. I am a little dishartened and dissapointed, considering my eagerness to learn and complete this course.

The moment I decided to leave was set for me when one of the course teachers responded to me, when I asked him during the 'Building garden structures' course if we were going to learn actually how to build a garden structure (we had spent the first hour talking about what we wanted to learn, the second hour walking around in dissorganised groups looking at dreadful existing structures, and the last hour still not learning anything...) his response to me was if you want to learn how to build a garden structure, go and do a course at Bunnings!

That is the tip of the ice berg.

Yes I was also horrified at the ferral garden and illegal grey water system, on the tour that 'the host' so proudly showed us. I too am not over permaculture because of my less than pleasant experience at Northey Street, however I am looking at books and places like this site for inspiration.

I also dissagree with using my skills and valuable time to design a permaculture garden that someone else is being paid for. Correct me if am wrong, but that is a breach of intellectual property and copyright, is it not.

PS I would be interested to know if you got gastro from lunch served on the Cassava day, I know I am not the only one...

Just out of interest, someone I know did this course last year and complained to Dick about the lack of structure, notes, organisation etc etc and thier comments were ignored, they were then made to feel uncomfortable with all future dealings.

It is a shame It went this way, It had so much potential!

 

The first reason among many why I am not alerting the course providers in writing until I finish the course. I hope you keep going forward, Chillichook.

Richard in your rush to make your own conclusions, I would like to point out that of the three people you mentioned, only one of them runs the course and that, aside from that, this thread is not about bashing people but airing thoughts on what I consider to be a below par course. You might swallow the "been around for years must have years of experience" adage but I don't.

If you're good with your bet, you've just lost your toenail. Careful you're not too quick to lose the other one.

 

There have been a few objections to doing a design for someone else, usually the host of the course, but the design is an intrinsic part of the course.

A PDC does many things, but one of them is it arms you with a "tool belt" of tools to look at, assess, design and implement that design. The other important part of EVERY course is that students actually design something, using a piece of land close to the class room.

For my PDC, the one I took, I designed changes to my own farm, most of which I never implemented, in part because my understanding pf permacultural principles grew after the course, and before i could implement my original simplistic design. The "toolbelt" I had was full of new tools, and I used the tools the way a novice uses tools, putting various components here and there, some of which were not really appropriate.

The other students at the course broke into groups, and designed changes to different pieces of the hosts land, and some to a neighbors place, but the design was one of the most important parts of the course, and, by working in groups, various design elements were incorporated in the design that one person, working alone, would have cerainly missed.

At the course we hosted in February, the instructors had all the participants break up into five groups, and the instructors, Penny Livingston and Toby Hemenway, assigned them pieces of our land that were un or underdeveloped, and they spent what they described to me as the most enjoyable parts of their course working in their groups, looking at the land, building mental aquaponis systems here, apiaries there, a treehouse for birdwatching, a new kitchen, a shower for our house, none of which exist, and most of which will never exist, at least in those exact forms.

The funnest part for all of them, I think, was presenting the designs, which was a lot of fun for us on the board at MMRF. We got some designs that were interesting to us, incorporating elements and relationships between components that we would not have done, was thought provoking for us, and good for them.

I think they all knew that we would most likely not use their designs in its entirety, but we will be (and have been) incorporating elements of the designs that we like.

We had a fantastic bunch of people involved in the course, both the instructors and the students were outstanding in every way, wonderfully accepting when the first few days were wet and miserable (everyone was laughing at the mud). I think they would all want us to use their design work, if possible.

My point is that the design is an integral part of every Permaculture Design Course, hence the word "design" :lol: :lol: Consider your design work their as a learning experience, and don't worry if it is used or not. It most likely will not be used.

And, I am sorry the course hasn't met your expectations. There was a thread in here that adressed some issues at that place (which got some very wounded and personally hurt entries from people over there, too). The URL for that thread, which is locked, is https://forums.permaculture.org.au/viewtopic.php?t=1849&highlight=northy+street

Take what you can from the course, and thank you for warning people of your experience. You may have saved someone from wasting their time and money! Things like this also serve the hosts to let them know they need to improve the quality of the experience they provide.

 

:shock: I had no idea that other link existed and I am sad that it does. However, I can see why it does.

The main reason why I posted in the first place.
The next thing is figuring out what to do about it because criticism is not well received there. But I have said all I have to say on the matter now and will wander off to think about it.

Thank you all again for your input.

 

This is a quote from Mozzie, from that link you sent us to.

That is exactly the kind of attitude that seems to permeate the farm, I think what Mozzie forgets is what community is all about.

Dictionery meaning: Community n. Common possession or enjoyment: agreement: communion: people having common rights, the public in general...

Not an exclusive club where your opinion is the only correct opinion and if God forbid we the general public have a different one, we are not welcome at "YOUR FARM" :?:

She is the general public, the exact kind of person the permaculture world are trying to reach and change their ideas about a better, more sustainable future. Your comments and attitude are WHY people like her, cannot get closer to see the value. Maybe you should consider having that cuppa, chilling and contemplate what permaculture really means.

I was eager and excited to be a part on Northey street, I have been visiting for years and waiting for a time in my life to be able to dive in help and be a part of my community, that time has come and after close inspection, I am running in the opposite direction. NSF has a lot to offer and there are a lot of beautiful souls in an around. But seriously, it needs a shakeup, clean out and attitude adjustment, or all the members are going to dissapear, volunteers will vanish and the council, tax department and health department will shut it down.

 

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Chill out you MOB..Your sounding like common human beings more and more everyday..

Funny how its a crime to get on the defensive.......

Funny how some just gotta be perfect no matter what the cost.............

Why are we wasting our times on weather people will follow our Permaculture paths.....1/2 of the posters wil knock you no matter how you do ya garden.and the other half,will find something else to whinge about,

Its its Tidy ittl have the wrong plants or teachers ...or right teachers and messy gardens......So what!!!!!!!!!!!!

If people decide against permaculture, becuase of someone elses idea of hygene,landscape ideas,or because as a volonteer they are a bit busy to chat. Isnt that being a bit hard on the people who are doing what they think/know is the best,, AS a permie you could have a bit more tolerence,after all you/we all know it aint easy......

As for a non Permie who just starts crapping on well i call that pig ignorence......

Im not here to win a tidy garden award.......
Im here to help save my life, feed myself, care for myself and family,not forgetting about doing it for mankind also....If i get excess food or other i share it...

Actually I dont care if people dont like my er "better homes and gardens GARDEN"...just like i dont care if people like my hairstyle,my music choics,
my religious beleifs,my sexual attitudes etc etc etc..........

Im not here for the world to like or hate im here for my own...

Funny how "defensive was made a "nasty" attitude a bit earlier.....
Well if i came to anyones house and made anything but positive comments Im sure Youd all get on the defensive and boot my ass of of here......We all get defensive..................

So what if people who want gardens like the tv stars.

So what if people are small minded about a bit of wee smells from a compost or compost toilet,who cares if 1 in 6 plants look old and near death.

Some of us actually save seed There are a hundred reasons for that unsightly garden,,Who are we to judge....................

I of course would love it if everyone was a permie,just like the good old days..trouble is it aint been like that for a couple thousand years now...
Luckily weve had a few thousand years to muck around......
Thing is we dont have a thousand years to get it right again......
we may not even get outta the first century of the the 2000s....

Personally I Dont and Cant care"its impossible to"whether people become permies after seeing mine or anyone elses places.....

Thers too many people anyways...I can imagine gangs roaming the streets
yelling to untidy gardeners bout the lack of colour coordination with their sunflowers clashing with there tagasasties,or their frog pond makes too much noise in early mating seasons...or the straw thast they layed last month is now brown instead of shiny gold coloured....

To all those who pick and whinge about anything,wel its just a sign that maybe its time you woke up to realities.

If we keep arguing well we got no hope have we.(wheres my razer blades)

I think some people in here are in desperate need of reading Bills books or rerunning his videos....Bill explains it all in his books/vids..

Please show me the page where Billsays "all gardens must be in strait lines or be nominated for the cover of a glossy magazine"

Well done to Northey st,the East Perth place,and al thoseother community gardens..No wonder they get accusations.......They mighta had some of our boardies attacking them..or others...If i allegedly got this many complaints id be on the defensive also..........

Permaculture Just Doing IT

Tezza