Permaculture and roundup

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by pebble, Aug 4, 2012.

  1. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    From another thread...

    I said:

    Len said:


    Grasshopper said:


    Len, I'll reply to your post later, just wanted to get this thread started.
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    have they grasshopper?

    where broadacre chemical crops are grown maybe but not in the rural we were in, simple friend if it did not work we would not have used it.

    that simple

    oh! the little bit we by would send them broke

    len
     
  3. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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  4. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    SOP,

    we don't throw plastic bottles away, we send them for recycle not so sure that is not just another yuppie feel good, but i guess its the best for now until they return to returnable glass bottles, it's an imperfect world.

    len
     
  5. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    You've missed the point entirely.

    'How bad could using 100ml of Roundup be? 15 million people wonder.'
     
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    i didn't miss the point, i use what i need to use in my integrate pest control, and i don't use product that does not work, now the 15mill don't have to wonder, who ever they may be. if they want something to worry about tell them about the hundreds of litres of poison that farmers use. and that the chemical we use is nowhere near the strength the farmers use from boom sprays and aircraft.

    len
     
  7. matto

    matto Junior Member

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    There is a post on this forum about using vinegar as a replacement, also have heard baking soda works well. I think there is steps you take in permaculture to come to a decision, and for me personally, would stop at using biocide on the home size scale and possibly use it in a broadacre tree system for a client not willing to experiment with a multitude of other options. Even then I would question their motives, and if its a systemic problem with their view of the world that would likely see the use of biocides being used, I would reconsider working with these types of people.

    And I would never, NEVER, use a Monsanto product! Period!
     
  8. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I'm happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong but doesn't Bill Mollison say precisely that somewhere in the Designer's manual?
     
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    In this thread from quite a few years ago (07)
    Someone suggests Molassis for nut grass
    It even has Len back then talking about control with Round Up(neat) and newspaper.
    Did you ever try the molasses Len or still sticking to round up 5 years later?

    https://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/organic/msg031226224011.html?27
     
  10. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    It's possible and probably because back then RoundUp was considered "safe for the environment." Remember the Designer's Manual was written in the 1980s and a lot more information has since come out about persistent biocides. We'd probably do better to base our decisions on recent, more accurate scientific knowledge rather than basing them on something some old guy said decades ago. :)
     
  11. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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  12. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day benjy,

    natural pyrethrums is just that a natural product from daisy's, BT is a chemical industry product developed for commercial farmers so they can use the sustainability tag and protect their bottom line, part of the GMO club arsenal. so i see it we would be using a man developed chemical on our crops maybe we might as well grow GMO plants??

    as teh newspaper and cardboard works so well we really do not have a lot of use for roundup once we have dabbed a tad on each plant that grows enough it is then dead, and we have done no harm to our fruit tree or vege gardens ans the nut grass we treat is in the general area of the yard when we have it. so no even back then in the 1995 period i knew glypho' as not safe as monsanto indicated, but in our IPM system it did a specific job applied one dab at a time. never used vinegar and only used mollasus for nematode control, which is rarer than nut grass in our yards.

    and as for using to kill grounsel it worked extremely well with no wind drift or over spray, look at farmers especially down west aussie way, eco' vandals.

    len
     
  13. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    You mean he advocates teaching roundup use in PDCs? Or that he is ok with using roundup in a permie situation?

    I'm a little uncomfortable with attributing things to Mollison unless we know they are actually true. Despite him being an old man from decades ago* his words carry a lot of weight. Can someone please look up the round up thing in the big book?


    *that made me laugh Ludi, but I'm not sure he was that old in the 80s ;-)
     
  14. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    bill was a strapping mid ager back in thr 80's.

    please read carefully pebble why and how we use roundup ok! it is just a mere part of what we see to do to get a known result. in 10 years or so we have used a whopping 2 litres of it at best, the share holders will be impressed, once GMO takes over then they won't be making glypho' available in small packages, then what to use? of course it we ate and harvested the nut grass nuts it may become scarce.

    len
     
  15. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    But he is surely old now! :)

    I can't find any reference to glyphosate aka RoundUp in the Big Book, personally.
     
  16. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    A great old guy not far from us used to say he was 98% organic! For me you either are or are not. As for permaculture - I can not see how it fits with the ethic. You can not (imo) "Care for the earth" or "care for people" if you support in any way a group like the traffickers of this toxic short cut.
     
  17. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Like a 98% Virgin?
    Still, the 'old guy' knew which direction he was going, so few do.

    There are many short cuts to weed control; but we are being brain-washed by Monsanto
    Kerosene is just as effective weedicide as round up (probably as bad too)
    But weeds are free carbon for your compost heap or soil
     
  18. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    you faredinkum michael,

    the weed i am talking about is nut grass grows from corms and seed, spreads like wild fire, seeds can be dormant in the soil for a long time, we dab a bit on each plant and we are environmental vandals? give over. we could use diesel as well as kero' but as you so wisely said they are just as bad as glypho.

    len
     
  19. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    boiling water would kill the leaves as well as round up does
    apparently geese and chooks like the leaves and corms
     
  20. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    "please read carefully pebble why and how we use roundup ok!"

    Hi Len,

    I hear ya. I don't know nut grass at all so I can't comment on the use of roundup and nutgrass and permaculture. But likewise I'm not qualified to say if there are no other options ;-)

    I do know that I'm very hard pressed to see any weeds where I live that can't be managed without roundup.

    I've told this story before, but it bears repeating. I once heard Kay Baxter talk. Kay is like NZ's version of Lawton or Holmgren. Very experienced and influential here (she writes occasionally on the PRI main site). She talked about how they set up their first permaculture property. There was one part of it that they used round up on, for a very difficult to get rid of grass (again, one we don't have where I live). For them it was a matter of pragmatics. I think it was an initial, one off application to get the part of the land up and running. From what I remember (but it was a long time ago) she justified it by saying that the amount of work required to clear the land by other means was out of proportion to the damage done by the roundup*. Probably a timing issue too, they needed to get things moving.

    I would be interested to know if she would make the same choice now.

    *I'm guessing that this is true for you too. Like I said, I don't feel qualified to comment one or other on your situation, but I feel more comfortable when people are honest about the limitations of their work and don't try and make out that it's benign, when it's actually more of a lesser of two evils situation.

    Having said all that, my original comment in the other thread was about teaching roundup use in a PDC (or other Pc teaching situation). Here's my reasoning why it's not ok (some of which others have covered already):

    - Monsanto are evil. They are so evil that there is no amount of good coming from collaboration that makes up for the damage they do and have done.

    - there is so much propaganda coming from so many places on herbicide use that it would be hard to give a true account of the issues in a teaching situation.

    - roundup damages soil microbia and the relationships between soil and plants and microorganisms. Because it happens at a level we can't see, it's easy to think it is not happening at all. Anything that increases that invisibility is a problem for permaculture.

    - choosing to use herbicides affects permaculture design. It limits the ability to think outside the box, and to really engage with observation and learning from nature and then making choices that are integrated. People who use herbicides practice a different kind of landcare than those that don't.



    I'm sure there are other reasons...
     

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