haha, this thread is so funny,I feel like I'm at a tennis match watching little balls zoom backwards and forwards, not understanding what the hell is going on or even why. Every culture is different and has varying priorities, just as every spot of land does. Who cares what nay sayers spout, they really arent important at all. Ludi, you said it yourself-real people dont have a problem with it, its those on line 'friends' that do and they may not even know what you are talking about, then as someone else pointed out, you have paid debunkers whose job it is is to stir up and confuse people. Lets face it, there's Big money in (non)food and if everyone starts 'growing food where the people are', ie n their own backyard or a community garden, then they are going to lose money. Stop worrying about it afterall, the 'proof is in the pudding' and the people you want to encourage are the ones who live next door or down the road and you are only going to do that by example.
Under this definition, even though they arent handing out diplomas at the Tagari Institute anymore, I would not ben eligible for a diploma because I did my PDC with David Holmgren and that course doesn't follow Mollisons law, although it does spend a day on the priniciples David has set out and covers alot of the info in the Designers Manual. I wonder how ethical people think Bill and Geoff are towards David. He doesnt rate a mention in any of Geoff's videos and Bill has publically humiliated David and is on the record several times in saying he alone came up with the vision of Permaculture. Hardly People care and Fair share now is it... not that David cares all that much, you just have to read Principles and Pathways to see how he is developing the idea of Permaculture as one of the true solutions to the coming crunch.
I hope Geoff will address this issue, matto. Apparently Geoff does not subscribe to the "Fair Share" version of the 3rd ethic, but to the ethic as expressed by Mollison.
I'm trying to get a sense of the differences between the Holmgrenists and the Mollisonians. Can anyone articulate the differences between the ethics of the two?
I'm not nearly as interested in the people who came up the idea as I am in the ideas themselves and, more importantly, the people who are implementing it. I'm not interested in the stories that circulate about other peoples relationships, particularly those I have no personal knowledge of. But I am interested in hearing first-hand stories of how people are actually relating to those around them in relation to permaculture. Bill and David aren't gods, but they are or have been very active people in their own ways. Why choose one over the other, rather than take the best from each of them. It's like saying if you are on Jesus' team Buddha has nothing of value to teach. It becomes religious and self-limiting. "Thoughts and desires amount to nothing if you fail to take action" - Me
I'm also interested in what you have to say Ludi. In fact the things you have to say on permaculture are particularly important. I like the questions you ask and I really get a feeling for how differently permaculture is seen in the USA compared to how I perceive it is seen here in Oz. It sounds like you guys have a harder boat to row in terms of public perception. I hallucinate that your powers-that-be are more determined to discredit it. Keep up the good work.
G'day Ludi Personally, I subscribe to the 'ethics' of both schools of thought, and see no real 'difference' between either (my emphasis in bold): Mollison (2005): ...it’s a revolution ... permaculture is anti-political. There is no room for politicians or administrators or priests. And there are no laws either. The only ethics we obey are: care of the earth, care of people, and reinvestment in those ends. Holmgren (2004): The greater the power of human civilisation (due to energy availability), and the greater the concentration and scale of power within society, the more critical ethics become in ensuring long-term cultural and even biological survival. This ecologically functional view of ethics makes them central in the development of a culture for energy descent. Like design principles, ethical principles were not explicitly listed in early permaculture literature. Since the development of the Permaculture Design Course, ethics have generally been covered by three broad maxims or principles: * Care for the earth (husband soil, forests and water) * Care for people (look after self, kin and community) * Fair share (set limits to consumption and reproduction, and redistribute surplus) These principles were distilled from research into community ethics, as adopted by older religious cultures and modern cooperative groups. The third principle, and even the second, can be seen as derived from the first. Cheerio, Markos.
this thread just shows no matter what everyone worships something, the majority their preferred lifestyle and any groups that prop that worship up, the ethics mentioned are not new we learn the same sort of ethics from our bible, that's our worship the book is about 6k years old, and yes lots of critics out there because they can if it wasn't written then the critics would have nothing to start with, the climate carbon worshipers all here as well look like they are going to end up with egg on their faces, that is what happens when worship is formed around men/women and their short history of theories. so all PC has done is copied it's ethics from religions that copied their ethics. and funnily enough if we all lived by those sort of ethics, wow the place would be a different place to live in hey, no crime, no suffering from other actions. so nothing new really all been chatted about before, people will grasp at straws to give meaning to life, that's ok all are blessed with the ability to make choice, just sad that some choices will so heavily impact those with the least. be nothing to copy without a history book written around 6k years ago. we don't see those up the top here out in broader communities, never see anything in the media, do hear a lot about them wanting pdc to be priced upward from around $2k to $20k, that is the main ethic i've seen over the years, i do my bit helping others the greater proportion of PC is organic growing. take care len
while all the stone throwing goes on others just get in and DO IT ! The Ottway forest network dont identify themselves as permaculturalists (the have heard of the concept) but they are getting stuff done
No differences in the ethic's between Mollo and Holmgren , they are both practising Permculture to the best of their abilities. I think David himself said it best about their differing approaches to permaculture, saying that if Bill is the father of permaculture, then he is the mother. Everyone has their different approach, which is great because permaculture is never cut and paste. Neither is Nature's grand plan.
Thank you , Matto. Some people seem to find a big difference in the use of the words "return" (Mollison) vs "redistribute" (Holmgren) but I wonder if they're reading something into those words which were not intended by Mom and Dad. There was a big discussion about this over at the other place recently but I think it might have gotten deleted..... Fortunately, I think, most permaculturists seem to find mostly common ground in the practices of permaculture, even if they vary on the philosophy.
I really like it that it's possible for people to talk about the 3rd ethic on PRI without getting their knickers particularly twisted. There was something in the news the other day about how many Aussies and NZers consider 'fairness' to be the cornerstone of our societies, whereas the majority of Americans think 'freedom' is the most important cultural value. So, riffing on the 'fair' thing, maybe Australasians tend to feel more comfortable with these concepts than some other cultures?
try again for mark, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS 1. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. 6. Thou shalt not kill. 7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. 8. Thou shalt not steal. 9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. 10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor’s. As said in the King James version of the Holy Bible. It can be seen that the first 4 Commandments are God's Laws, and the next 6 Commandments are moral laws, still Gods laws as to how He wants us to live, but at the end of the day God requires we keep all his Commandments & Laws as He has written them in stone. Ecc 12:13. Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Psa 118:8 [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. 118:9 [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes. Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed [be] the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. len
That is an astute observation pippi. I'm not sure I would characterise it as the majority of Americans. Or maybe the ones I've known are the ones that don't think like that and so come to NZ ;-) I'd characterise it as libertarian politics compared to humanitarian ones. Here's an example. https://www.permies.com/t/7079/meaningless-drivel/Fairshare-you That thread makes my heart hurt. As someone with a physical disability I am indeed dependent on other people to be alive, and I thank the earth that I live in a country where people give a shit. I feel like going over to that thread and shouting 'hey, I live in a socialist democracy and I'm still a person. And oh, btw, both Mollison and Holmgren were raised within a socialist democracy" ;-) Maybe we should have a dedicated thread here about the Third Ethic (not least because this one is about to turn religious)...
