When people are religious and political, I'm not sure how you make people leave politics and religion out of their practice of permaculture. Their values are bound to influence their behavior. People are strongly motivated by political and religious ideals, I don't see how you can prevent this.
Simple, don't add prefixes or suffixes or infixes eg. perma"f'ing"culture. Especially if you are putting yourself out there on the web or anywhere. I think saying "we practice permaculture and are also ________________ " is totally cool and worthwhile if it brings more people in the fold. If it is ___________permaculture I for one would have skipped it. Don't represent Pc as anything other than Pc e.g. paganpermaculture (isn't necessary) I am not trying to prevent, it I just don't like it. Have you ever tried arguing with a person re their faith/beliefs? it's a total waste of time I think I have said my piece here. peace
I try to take a three pronged approach. 1. Understand them 2. Oppose deception 3. Be the change you want to see
I see it differently. I see people adding permaculture to something else they already do, rather than co-opting Pc in some way. And I feel uncomfortable with people who have antipathy towards religion trying to have it excluded. I can see the rationale for the PRI PDCs, but not much further than that. If the pagans want to take Pc into their community, why can they not use the word permaculture? Having said that, I can't see the point of the website you referred to https://christianpermaculture.org I haven't read all that (my eyes glazed over pretty quick), but as far a I can tell there's not really anything on that site about Pc apart from a notice board for some events.
It's fairly similar to arguing with a person about their dislike of religion ;-) Really it depends on the person and their beliefs. I've had some great conversations with people about their beliefs. Others I avoid like the plague.
G'day WFG Welcome to the PRI Forum I get where you are coming from. It is a tangled web we permaculturists weave, hey? Personally, I am of the opinion that the prefixes you mention above (plus an infinite amount more) all have the capacity to fit underneath the permaculture umbrella, but only if they first meet with (or indeed, exceed) the ethics and principles of the same. Ahh, but here's the rub; Permaculture is at it very heart concerned with the social ecology (care for the earth, care for the people, return the surplus, etc.) of our biosphere. Therefore, whatever the human (social) element of our shared world does encapsulate (including one's individual beliefs and ideologies, be they of the political, religious, or otherwise kind), we must work harder at finding ways of how we can accommodate them for the greater permacultural cause. Sure it shits me that some profess infinite knowledge and wisdom (or even just blindly follow others that do), and then set about ramming their myopic world views down my throat. But I also appreciate (nay, rejoice) that we live in a world where individuals hold many views I'm also of the opinion that if we are ever going to find a way to move forward as a collective species, we must first provide a space in our global village for all of God's (Yewah's, Allah's, Thor's, Buddah's, Mao's, Bookchin's, ad infinitum) children. Permaculture creates this (garden) space; it's up to us (all of humanity) to turn this space into a place - Our Place, a big Blue Marble of peace and tranquility. Of course, this does not mean that we should not confront those who profess to further the ethics and principles of permaculture, but upon closer inspection do anything and everything that is the antithesis of the same. Rather, it does mean that we (and I include myself here) need to be more tolerant of the pedagogical process (as slow as it can be) and understand that the only way forward is to promote greater access to a free and secular education. Always better the carrot, rather than the stick, don't you think? Writing of which, I have previously asserted (and provided evidence, of sorts) that gum (resin) on a stick (spear) can indeed be considered permaculture. This serves to remind us that it is how we frame our permaculture practices - what choice of discourse we use to demonstrate the holistic benefits of the same - that is the real challenge. I once had a neighbour who spoke nothing but some strange (at least to me) eastern European dialect. However, he was one of the kindest blokes I have ever met. His garden was always brimming with the most delicious and lovingly-tended fruit and veg that I could only ever aspire to one day emulate. I had - and to this day still have no idea - what his personal political or religious beliefs were, if indeed he ever held any. But I do know that through the universal language of a shared smile and a basket of food passed one way over the fence (and a bottle or three of home-brewed beer passed back the other way), it did not matter what each believed. The only thing that mattered was that each knew that there was/is/and always will be a universal truth. Anyway, before I run off to finish the pumpkin soup (and then make my way to an evening lecture), I'd like to take this opportunity to leave you with just a few of titles that I have found particularly interesting in relation to the overall topic. Each of the authors (in their own unique way, and in no particular order other than alphabetical) have helped me to better understand that the sum of permaculture's parts is greater than its whole: Alexander et at (1977) A Pattern Langauge Holmgren (2002) Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability Hargens & Zimmerman (2009) Integral Ecology Cheers, Marko.
That's is what we are supposed to be doing now, but when you bring something like christianpermaculture.com, that blows it out of the water and confuses someone new to Permaculture. It's why I am shooting for my place to be actually PRI approved.
I don't get it. How would someone come across christianpermaculture.com unless we googled "christian +permaculture"? It's possibly linked from other christian websites, but I can't imagine many permie sites linking to it. If I posted a link to muslimorganicgardening.com would you assume that organic gardening was somehow about Islam? Or would you think that the website was about how muslims do organic gardening.
https://www.permies.com/t/14421/WWO...ers-interns/Fellowship-Christian-permaculture the world is a mysterious place
Ah. So one could also find christianpermaculture.com if one looked in the backlog at permies.com ;-) (or searched deliberately for christian permaculture) It's not like that is a very active thread, and will eventually drop of that forum page. Strangely permies shows that thread having 6 replies, but I only see 1. And we can't see how many viewings its had. Unlike this thread which has had 763 views.
I can see approx 2 threads with 'christian' in the subject line in the whole of permies. Given that permies is the hottest Pc forum online it's hardly a take over.
That is where I ran across it, by clicking on the Wwoffing section, no google search, no seeking. No talk of "takeover" I remember, Taint was the topic initially. If they have a young charismatic leader, they might just be putting the cult in permaculture. Interestingly, on christianpermaculture.org, they mention Salatin and Holzer as permaculture resources but no others. I hope they have a good life and enjoy their farm, but I think they might be confusing people by conflating pc and religion. Actually, I think the prefixes are exclusionary in and of themselves, rather than the argument that they are being excluded. Btw -- infixes are really awesome and from a reliable source, only one exists, in-f'ing-credible Damn, I got pulled back in.
I still can't see how a single thread, with one reply, can be tainting permaculture. No doubt we won't be able to agree on this. But I think there is a distinct difference between people taking permaculture into their own group, and somehow infecting permaculture as a whole with the values and practices of that group. I simply don't see the latter happening (except to the extent that permaculture originated from a white western world view). Have a look at these examples... Rainbow Valley Farm, one of the premier permaculture institutions, demonstration farms and Pc educators in New Zealand: "21 ha organic property designed on permaculture principles and ethics. The farm has inspired thousands of people over 23 years in sustainable living and the principles of premaculture in action. To achieve sustainable living, the property provides an exemplary model to encourage and educate others on a more environmentally-friendly approach to how we can live in sync with nature. EDUCATION CENTRE We run an educational centre for permaculture and natural sustainable concepts from a Maori view. " https://rainbowvalley.co.nz/ Should they not be teaching permaculture alongside the Maori world view? Will doing so 'taint' permaculture in NZ or globally? PiNZ (NZ national permie group) annual hui 2009: "Come immerse yourself in tikanga Maori and kaupapa permaculture." https://www.greylynn2030.co.nz/2009/04/30/annual-permaculture-hui/ Again, is this going to taint permaculture? Should they stop? Should David Holmgren not have attended that meeting and not done a presentation at it? "International Permaculture Design Course with Geoff Lawton, Rikirangi Gage, Kay Baxter, Bob Corker and Others.... An intensive two week course covering the principles of natural design in agriculture, horticulture, land use, housing, community development with an emphasis on Maori perspectives. " https://permaculture.org.au/2008/04...sign-course-with-geoff-lawton-in-nz/#more-343 These are all really good things. It's vital in NZ that Pc is accepted and adopted by Maori. And that will change permaculture, in a good way IMO. In what ways is this different from other groups adopting permaculture?
Well thanks for sharing that. Oh, okay, so just like the terra forming is site specific, the development and incorporation of the the existing unseen structures need to be site specific too (morality ideas, legal structures, etc) I swear I have heard somewhere that the unseen structures are the most difficult part of permaculture to deal with. So, just as long as the PDC isn't disseminated as Faeries and Goblins and such, once you get home, make it work for your area. Well, I may be opinionated, but I am open to new ideas. Fruitful discussion.
Yes I think so. Keeping the integrity of the PDC seems important, and also if people are using the term permaculture commercially or to teach. Otherwise, people will take Pc into their lives and make it work for what they need. It will evolve both formally and informally. Have you seen this? https://permaculture.org.au/2010/01/12/peter-ellyard-talks-to-geoff-lawton/#comments Hat tip Leila: https://www.permies.com/t/14679/permaculture/adapting-permaculture-talk-your-culture I hadn't heard about the UK govt thing, does anyone know about that?
I think it's important to spread that Lawton quote around, because I have seen people say you can't teach permaculture without a PDC. I've also seen people say the ethics aren't important.
There's also a libertarian gun-wielding homesteader image of permaculture that surely appeals to those "heartland" people though... Honestly, I say why not just let it evolve?
