Organic vs Conventional Produce

Discussion in 'News from around the damp planet' started by 9anda1f, Jan 31, 2014.

  1. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Hmm. This article seems to say that organic produce bought in a store is just about equal to conventional produce with respect to pesticides ... plus it costs more.

    Guess the answer is to just grow your own!

    https://www.slate.com/articles/doub...r_kids_you_don_t_need_to_fear_pesticides.html
     
  2. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    I'd eat locally grown industrial veggies over organic. Strange, but true.
     
  3. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    this is yet another great example how the USoA gov't f*d up the word Organic.

    yes, grow your own is the best answer if you have the soil, light, water for it, but hope that the water and soil are decent and clean enough.
     
  4. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    I agree songbird but I worry about the billions of people that do not have decent water and soil to grow there own. Maybe the articles last paragraph says it best -

    "As far as I’m concerned, the biggest myth when it comes to organic farming is that you have to choose sides. Guess what? You don’t. You can appreciate the upsides of rotating crops and how GMOs might improve output and nutrition. You, the wise and intelligent consumer, don’t have to buy into either side’s propaganda and polarize to one end or another. You can, instead, be somewhere along the spectrum, and encourage both ends to listen up and work together to improve our global food resources and act sustainably. "
     
  5. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Gandalf have you looked into Oregon Tilth or any of the USDA Organic Certification information? The chemical use is disgusting! Also having to pay $4000 a year is nothing short of utterly re-cockulas (for my property). They & the USDA can go suck an egg if anyone thinks they are getting 24/7 access to my property to look around.


    BTW, being regional and cranky a moment. Have you noticed Oregon State are teaching Permaculture, but the extensions are not even though ran by OSU?

    I asked about Permaculture at my local extension and the dude looked at me like a Hydra on crank.
     
  6. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    §205.601 Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production.

    In accordance with restrictions specified in this section, the following synthetic substances may be used in organic crop production: Provided, That, use of such substances do not contribute to contamination of crops, soil, or water. Substances allowed by this section, except disinfectants and sanitizers in paragraph (a) and those substances in paragraphs (c), (j), (k), and (l) of this section, may only be used when the provisions set forth in §205.206(a) through (d) prove insufficient to prevent or control the target pest.

    (a) As algicide, disinfectants, and sanitizer, including irrigation system cleaning systems.

    (1) Alcohols.

    (i) Ethanol.

    (ii) Isopropanol.

    (2) Chlorine materials—For pre-harvest use, residual chlorine levels in the water in direct crop contact or as water from cleaning irrigation systems applied to soil must not exceed the maximum residual disinfectant limit under the Safe Drinking Water Act, except that chlorine products may be used in edible sprout production according to EPA label directions.

    (i) Calcium hypochlorite.

    (ii) Chlorine dioxide.

    (iii) Sodium hypochlorite.

    (3) Copper sulfate—for use as an algicide in aquatic rice systems, is limited to one application per field during any 24-month period. Application rates are limited to those which do not increase baseline soil test values for copper over a timeframe agreed upon by the producer and accredited certifying agent.

    (4) Hydrogen peroxide.

    (5) Ozone gas—for use as an irrigation system cleaner only.

    (6) Peracetic acid—for use in disinfecting equipment, seed, and asexually propagated planting material. Also permitted in hydrogen peroxide formulations as allowed in §205.601(a) at concentration of no more than 6% as indicated on the pesticide product label.

    (7) Soap-based algicide/demossers.

    (8) Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate (CAS #-15630-89-4)—Federal law restricts the use of this substance in food crop production to approved food uses identified on the product label.

    (b) As herbicides, weed barriers, as applicable.

    (1) Herbicides, soap-based—for use in farmstead maintenance (roadways, ditches, right of ways, building perimeters) and ornamental crops.

    (2) Mulches.

    (i) Newspaper or other recycled paper, without glossy or colored inks.

    (ii) Plastic mulch and covers (petroleum-based other than polyvinyl chloride (PVC)).

    (c) As compost feedstocks—Newspapers or other recycled paper, without glossy or colored inks.

    (d) As animal repellents—Soaps, ammonium—for use as a large animal repellant only, no contact with soil or edible portion of crop.

    (e) As insecticides (including acaricides or mite control).

    (1) Ammonium carbonate—for use as bait in insect traps only, no direct contact with crop or soil.

    (2) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.

    (3) Boric acid—structural pest control, no direct contact with organic food or crops.

    (4) Copper sulfate—for use as tadpole shrimp control in aquatic rice production, is limited to one application per field during any 24-month period. Application rates are limited to levels which do not increase baseline soil test values for copper over a timeframe agreed upon by the producer and accredited certifying agent.

    (5) Elemental sulfur.

    (6) Lime sulfur—including calcium polysulfide.

    (7) Oils, horticultural—narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.

    (8) Soaps, insecticidal.

    (9) Sticky traps/barriers.

    (10) Sucrose octanoate esters (CAS #s—42922-74-7; 58064-47-4)—in accordance with approved labeling.

    (f) As insect management. Pheromones.

    (g) As rodenticides. Vitamin D3.

    (h) As slug or snail bait. Ferric phosphate (CAS # 10045-86-0).

    (i) As plant disease control.

    (1) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.

    (2) Coppers, fixed—copper hydroxide, copper oxide, copper oxychloride, includes products exempted from EPA tolerance, Provided, That, copper-based materials must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation in the soil and shall not be used as herbicides.

    (3) Copper sulfate—Substance must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation of copper in the soil.

    (4) Hydrated lime.

    (5) Hydrogen peroxide.

    (6) Lime sulfur.

    (7) Oils, horticultural, narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.

    (8) Peracetic acid—for use to control fire blight bacteria. Also permitted in hydrogen peroxide formulations as allowed in §205.601(i) at concentration of no more than 6% as indicated on the pesticide product label.

    (9) Potassium bicarbonate.

    (10) Elemental sulfur.

    (11) Streptomycin, for fire blight control in apples and pears only until October 21, 2014.

    (12) Tetracycline, for fire blight control in apples and pears only until October 21, 2014.

    (j) As plant or soil amendments.

    (1) Aquatic plant extracts (other than hydrolyzed)—Extraction process is limited to the use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide; solvent amount used is limited to that amount necessary for extraction.

    (2) Elemental sulfur.

    (3) Humic acids—naturally occurring deposits, water and alkali extracts only.

    (4) Lignin sulfonate—chelating agent, dust suppressant.

    (5) Magnesium sulfate—allowed with a documented soil deficiency.

    (6) Micronutrients—not to be used as a defoliant, herbicide, or desiccant. Those made from nitrates or chlorides are not allowed. Soil deficiency must be documented by testing.

    (i) Soluble boron products.

    (ii) Sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or silicates of zinc, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, selenium, and cobalt.

    (7) Liquid fish products—can be pH adjusted with sulfuric, citric or phosphoric acid. The amount of acid used shall not exceed the minimum needed to lower the pH to 3.5.

    (8) Vitamins, B1, C, and E.

    (9) Sulfurous acid (CAS # 7782-99-2) for on-farm generation of substance utilizing 99% purity elemental sulfur per paragraph (j)(2) of this section.

    (k) As plant growth regulators. Ethylene gas—for regulation of pineapple flowering.

    (l) As floating agents in postharvest handling.

    (1) Lignin sulfonate.

    (2) Sodium silicate—for tree fruit and fiber processing.

    (m) As synthetic inert ingredients as classified by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), for use with nonsynthetic substances or synthetic substances listed in this section and used as an active pesticide ingredient in accordance with any limitations on the use of such substances.

    (1) EPA List 4—Inerts of Minimal Concern.

    (2) EPA List 3—Inerts of unknown toxicity—for use only in passive pheromone dispensers.

    (n) Seed preparations. Hydrogen chloride (CAS # 7647-01-0)—for delinting cotton seed for planting.

    (o) As production aids. Microcrystalline cheesewax (CAS #'s 64742-42-3, 8009-03-08, and 8002-74-2)-for use in log grown mushroom production. Must be made without either ethylene-propylene co-polymer or synthetic colors.

    (p)-(z) [Reserved]

    [65 FR 80637, Dec. 21, 2000, as amended at 68 FR 61992, Oct. 31, 2003; 71 FR 53302 Sept. 11, 2006; 72 FR 69572, Dec. 10, 2007; 75 FR 38696, July 6, 2010; 75 FR 77524, Dec. 13, 2010; 77 FR 8092, Feb. 14, 2012; 77 FR 33298, June 6, 2012; 77 FR 45907, Aug. 2, 2012; 78 FR 31821, May 28, 2013]




    The above is THE ORGANIC rules, and only a part of it.
     
  7. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    just because they tag the word "sustainability" on the end doesn't make the argument sound. the problem with most agricultural systems today is not the amount of food produced but the many harmful things that go along with it. if you do not live in an agricultural area you are welcome to visit one sometime and see what is going on, i can send you pictures: loss of topsoil, biological diversity, harmful effects on soil, air, water and the disregard for neighbors. these are not actions of decent people.

    the idea that we need to help the poor is great, i'm all for it, but i don't think we are very helpful in the end if more and more land/water is being lost from various causes (mostly due to poor agricultural practices). there is no compatibility with using GMOs and heirloom seed saving. none at all. want to be sued for doing what you've been doing your whole life simply because your neighbor plants GMO crops and contaminates yours? is that sustainable or permaculture?

    to respond to Pak's point, i suspect the $4,000 fee for certification is only for large growers (over a certain amount of $/yr production) and not a yearly fee. at least last time i read an "Organic" cert manual it was not a yearly fee and it only applied to large growers. still i would not want to pay it and as it turns out, i don't, i don't grow "Organic" food, i grow food.
     
  8. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    Yes, I am aware of the illogical and non-sustainable way farming is done now in the large ag communities. Yes I know about cross contamination of fields etc. etc. etc. but as the article points out, there is no benefit to doing it organically and probably even less non-organically and I never supported either sides claim to sustainability.

    It does appear you have taken the non-GMO side of the argument and will stick with it no matter what. I agree that their is stupid legislation, bad farm management practices and issues with certain forms of gene manipulation. Along with just as many stupid approaches in being 'organic'. But you are okay with not saving potentially 2 million children, who die from vitamin A deficiency every year, that could be helped by the use of 'Golden Rice' which has vitamin A spliced into it? The only reason NOT to do it is if you can show me an heirloom seed that does that. If you can't and you still stick with your view then take the mental responsibility for more children dieing unnecessarily.
     
  9. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    No. But yes. The GMO/synthetic process won't work and will only serve to increase human population reliant upon a dead end. The higher the population, the higher the chance for a bitter end.

    The only method that is sustainable is in the manual.
     
  10. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    where is that statistic for vitamin A deficiency coming from?

    growing a carrot will provide plenty of vitamin A, non-GMO varieties are plentiful.

    as i'm for one in favor of agricultural policies which will actually give children a diverse diet i think they'd come out ahead overall, and their topsoils, wildlife and water would improve giving yet other benefits. that sounds much more sustainable and exhibiting permaculture ideas than a continued emphasis on monocrop rice even if it were GMO altered. if they are dying it is at the hand of their own families and cultures in combination with the companies which perpetuate such abuses. trying to say i'm a part of that when i'm clearly on the opposite side is a pretty sad accusation.

    and yes, i do come down on the side of non-GMO altered plants as of yet i see absolutely no need for them. i also see a lot of harm from GMOs in general which gets ignored by many people who haven't actually studied natural systems and processes or lived within them very long.
     
  11. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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  12. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

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    That argument shits me !
    If you don't agree with GM "POTENTIAL" you are a multi million child killer.BULLSHIT .GM is supported by industry(AG) for industry(PHARMA) for profit which IS responsible for Diabetes and Obesity (amongst other things) which IS killing millions of people as well as concreting conventional Ag practices which IS killing the soil and destroying the biodiversity our population relies on.The place for GM in my opinion is in the lab and only in the lab,The precautionary principal has not been applied.If you need vitamin C with your rice grow chillis . Increase in Biodiversity has made us decrease in biodiversity is taking us down starting with the poor who have had their privilege subjugated . How can you promote a financial a potential over ecological reality and still be responsible on a (Hopefully) pro permaculture forum?
     
  13. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    Pumpkin, cantaloupe, sweet potato, carrots, spinach and cow liver are all perfectly good sources of Vitamin A. The first 3 should be able to grow just about anywhere in some form or fashion. You can also overdose from Vitamin A.

    You don't need to manipulate genetics to provide a balanced diet, to grow crops, or for any other reason. Planting a single crop is why we're in this mess. It's time to move away from that model.
     
  14. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    This is a strawman argument, or a false choice from NG. Many are under the illusion, or spell, if you will, that the problems as highlighted only have one solution. Humans are programmed to accept a one or the other scenario, and most are easily fooled. Now, that typed, it is those who are making money, that are using black magic, or rather, influening people's thoughts (magic) to work for/promote ideas that are ultimately not in the people's best interest (black), those people who are making money using black magic are evil.

    On the contrary, one can overdose on Vitamin A! Check this out: https://health.howstuffworks.com/we...-supplements/foods-that-contain-vitamin-a.htm
     
  15. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    you won't get an overdose from golden rice. nor many plant sources, even eating many lbs of sweet potato, squash, carrots, etc. may turn your skin orange, but your body just doesn't overload itself. eating sharks liver may be toxic, but to me that's a rather extreme form of eating i'm entirely unlikely to ever experience.

    this is an interesting article which pretty well sums up my views of the GMO debate, that it really hasn't been an actual debate as most debates would require some degree of actual informed opinions. the lack of research, common sense, etc. in most GMO introductions into the environment is rather appalling...

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/01/08/fakethrough-gmos-and-the-capitulation-of-science-journalism/
     
  16. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    i wish i could get the link to load, but i was able to see an indirect quote from her in another article which sounded fair (about the first version of GR, where now they are working on the next versions).

    i still am not finding anything i consider reliable on the statement about the number of deaths from Vitamin A deficiency. i am finding someone saying 800 million malnourished and 2-3 million suffering Vitamin A deficiency, but nothing about 2 million dying.
     
  17. altamira55

    altamira55 Junior Member

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    How can you tell it's locally grown? My impression is that industrial veggies are sold by buyers who purchase from the least expensive source at any given time. I'm not sure what's grown industrially in Louisiana other than sugar cane and cotton. Rice maybe? But your climate is not all that different from south Texas, where they grow mostly rice, cotton, sorghum, soybeans, and corn. Here in central Texas, the only industrial crops I can think of are cotton, beef, wool, sorghum, corn, winter wheat, and strawberries (which are started somewhere else, shipped to Texas, and grown as annuals). Oh yes, and watermelons (nearby Luling is known as the watermelon capital of the world, or state, or universe, or something) ... peaches from the Hill Country, although the crops have failed several years in a row due to drought and late frosts. You might count olives and grapes, but all the grape and olive growers I can think of are small operations that could hardly be called industrial. Pecans maybe ... But I can't think of any veggies.
     
  18. altamira55

    altamira55 Junior Member

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    I couldn't get the link to load either, but I think this is the original source of the statement that Vitamin A deficiency causes 2 millons deaths annually:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1600583


    The abstract says, "Reported are estimates of the prevalence in developing countries of physiologically significant vitamin A deficiency and the number of attributable deaths. The WHO classification of countries by the severity and extent of xerophthalmia was used to categorize developing countries by likely risk of subclinical vitamin A deficiency. Using vital statistics compiled by UNICEF, we derived population figures and mortality rates for under-5-year-olds. The findings of vitamin A supplementation trials were applied to populations at-risk of endemic vitamin A deficiency to estimate the potential impact of improved vitamin A nutriture in reducing mortality during preschool years. Worldwide, over 124 million children are estimated to be vitamin A deficient. Improved vitamin A nutriture would be expected to prevent approximately 1-2 million deaths annually among children aged 1-4 years. An additional 0.25-0.5 million deaths may be averted if improved vitamin A nutriture can be achieved during the latter half of infancy. Improved vitamin A nutriture alone could prevent 1.3-2.5 million of the nearly 8 million late infancy and preschool-age child deaths that occur each year in the highest-risk developing countries."
     
  19. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    Interesting. Here is an excerpt:

    Vandana Shiva pointed out that the claims for it were false: GR1 was incapable of solving vitamin A deficiencies because the levels of beta-carotene were too low. This was disputed at the time, but it is a clear acknowledgement of GR1′s failure that Syngenta developed a new rice (GR2) (Paine et al 2005).

    Lack of interest is more the issue. But those in the money will not hesitate to use false choice marketing techniques.
     
  20. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Wow really people?

    Come on, this is a permaculture forum, does ANYONE here really think (now take a moment) rice will help solve a vitamin A deficiency?

    Bill Mollison is right, no one grows enough parsley.

    Dried Parsley provides the most vitamin A with 10184IU (204% DV) per 100 gram serving, or 204IU (4% DV) per tablespoon.
    Dried Basil (188% DV)
    Dried Marjoram (161% DV)
    Dill (154% DV)
    Oregano (138% DV)
    A tablespoon of paprika contains 3691IU (74% DV) for vitamin A, or 52735 IU (1055% DV) for a 100 gram serving
    Other red pepper powders have similar amounts with Cayenne powder providing 41610 IU (832% DV) per 100g or 2081IU (42% DV) in a single tablespoon.

    Screw GMO crops, they are not needed and are a blight on this world.
     

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