Organic v Permie

Discussion in 'Forum Info and Questions' started by toolworx, Mar 12, 2011.

  1. toolworx

    toolworx Junior Member

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    What is the difference between the two?
    I am studying cert IV Organics at Tafe.. and was just wondering what would the difference be?

    Thanks
     
  2. derekh

    derekh Junior Member

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    In 30 words or less (I'm sure others will elaborate), Organic is simply growing plants without chemical additives, Permaculture, on the other hand, is a whole system encompassing sustainable food, housing, social and financial systems.

    My 30 words worth :)

    Derek
     
  3. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Crikey, watch out for the scythes coming your way Derek!. Organics is the practice of growing food by growing good soil (and thus avoiding pesticides and artificial fertilisers etc).
     
  4. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Organics is permaculture without the 3 ethics. And without a grand plan.
     
  5. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I honestly can't do better than what Eco said.

    Organic is a tool of permaculture; Organic gardeners sadly can still use chemicals in the US and still be labeled USDA Organic.
     
  6. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    Permaculture is a design system and organics is a growing system. Very complementary - the ethic is what sets Permaculture apart from many environmental and agricultural systems.
     
  7. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I take it you mean formalised ethics. The organics movement I know has ethics (but I don't live in the US).
     
  8. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I'll explain it better so it doesn't sound like I'm insulting organic growers. The vast majority of organic growers will have their own ethical commitment that essentially works out the same as the permaculture ethics. But you can grow organically and even be certified as organic without adhering to ethical principles. Geoff Lawton when he spoke at the Perm Noosa meeting last year gave an example of an organic farm down the valley from a permaculture place in the US. The farm grows carrots organically (monoculture). They run a pump 24 / 7 (fossil fuel burning) to drain the aquifer to water the crop, with no thought for what happens to the area when the aquifer is finally exhausted. The farm is own by a large corporation who will simply leave it and move on when it becomes unproductive. They aren't doing anything to restore the nutrients in the soil, because they'll just move on when it is spent. They use underpaid illegal migrants to hand weed the crop and make them work in appalling conditions.
    THAT is organic.
    Permaculture is a bigger world view that includes organic growing practices, but no permaculture producer would grow carrots the way that this unethical organic grower is doing.
     
  9. derekh

    derekh Junior Member

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    Very well stated Eco, and in a lot less than 30 words :)
     
  10. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    True enough Pebble the organic ethic underpins the Pc ethic and stands alone too. I was meaning a formalized ethic.
    Growing organically and growing with an organic ethic are two different things.
     
  11. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    THAT is US organics, and the co-option by agribusiness at that (you think this won't happen to permaculture?). In NZ you get a bit of that, but mostly it's people that are philosophically committed. The organics movement I'm familiar with has it's roots in the soil and health association that came about in the 1940s I think and had its own set of values and ethics.

    Criticisms can be made about US permaculture too btw ;-)

    And while I know that Geoff and co are doing impressive work to maintain the integrity of permaculture I'm not sure how much control they will have over that once it goes mainstream and commerce sees how money can be made. There are lessons to be learnt from the organics movement.
     
  12. toolworx

    toolworx Junior Member

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    Wow Thanks Guys/Girls. :)
    I knew there where some differences But I did not realise that they where so far apart in thinking.
    I think that just because someone says they are Organic that it means they will be keeping to the mainstream organics. We plan to be self Sustaining as much as possible, We are looking to get a Pig to do the Digging and Some rabbits for the Table. We have chooks but for now they live away from the garden. They already had a chook run here so we are using that.
    Thanks..

    On a Side Note.. i got some Comfrey that we are growing.. The chooks have not taken to it..:(
    I have just put into some seed mix about 300 Garlic seeds and have that much again to put in..
    That will be for the table and for the chooks to graze on.
     
  13. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    It's already happening in the U.S. There are US Permie forums were people cannot write and read about topics dealing with certain parts of permaculture such as aquaculture or the 3rd Ethic. There are also tons of fly-by night Permaculture farms suddenly teaching in the US, including colleges offering the courses online.

    It's a tragedy to be sure, but IMO, if Bill M. & Geoff's students keep adhering to the principles it will rub off onto others eventually. Certainly has where I live. There is me and another Permaculture homestead across town from me & articles about permaculture and food forests regularly appear in our local newspaper so I keep my hopes up.
     

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