ok - it's time to organize

Discussion in 'General chat' started by murray, Aug 27, 2006.

  1. murray

    murray Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    g'day all,

    the pace is picking up here, and the volume of messages is getting almost hectic. today, something inside me said it's time to stop putting it off any longer. i need to split the forum into some subgroups to better separate the crazy monsanto posts from the comfrey folks. i'm sure you'll agree that it's now needed.

    people have worried about too much organization and have protested that disucssions meander around to many topics within a single thread. for example, swales often lead to chicken tallk which often leads to how to kill chickens, etc.. personally, i enjoy that, and it's been the primary reason why i haven't split things up thus far.

    the best idea i've considered over the past year has been to use the permaculture zone system to organize the topics in the forum themselves. that way, subjects that meander have more chance of still being 'on topic' within the zone.

    here are the zones for those of you who aren't familiar with them:

    * Zone 0 - The house, or home centre. Here permaculture principles would be applied in terms of aiming to reduce energy and water needs, harnessing natural resources such as sunlight, and generally creating a harmonious sustainable environment in which to live, work and relax.

    * Zone 1 - Is the zone nearest to the house, the location for those elements in the system that require frequent attention, or that need to be visited often.

    * Zone 2 - The vegetable garden, larger scale compost bins and maybe beehives.

    * Zone 3 - Is the area where crops are grown, both for domestic and trading purposes. Would include orchards. After establishment, care and maintenance requirements are fairly minimal providing mulches, etc. are used. Watering or weed control is once a week or so.

    * Zone 4 - Is semi-wild. Used for timber production from coppice managed woodland and the placement of aquaculture ponds.

    * Zone 5 - The wilderness. There is no human intervention here apart from the observation of natural eco-systems and cycles. Here is where we learn the most important lessons of the first permaculture principle of working with nature, not against it.

    how's that sound?

    what i need at this point is some help in 2 areas.

    1. i need some help to word and describe the subforms so that people know what's inside. (No -- i don't simply want to use the descriptions above. i'd rather describe the zones uniquely for our needs here at PRI forum)

    2. i need some volunteers to help me organize the topics into the appropriate, newly created subforums.

    cheers

    murray
     
  2. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,046
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    E Washington, USA
    Climate:
    Semi-Arid Shrub Steppe (BsK)
    Seventh Zone?

    Hi Murray,

    I've been sitting here exploring your system of forum zones...and I really like the idea! I can see where Richard's pond/pump posts might go in zone 4, Heuristic's underground housing in zone 1, etc.

    But I'm wondering where such posts as the "Monsanto" and "Peak Oil" types would go? Out in the wilderness? :?: Maybe a zone 6 for "external influences"?

    9anda1f
     
  3. murray

    murray Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    monsanto is definately zone 5: the wilderness, which is all about working with nature - or not - as the case may be. having said that, maybe we can come up with better zone names and descriptions so that it's a little more obvious.

    8)
     
  4. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Zone names would make more sense I think. And should also make writing their heading easier.

    If I could offer a suggestion....stay away from all the technical permaculture jargon and instead have everything in plain simply english. For simply people like myself :)

    Am happy to help in anyway you might need....but while I think breaking the forum into 'zones' is a good idea and would make things a bit easier for people...especially newcomers...I'm not a fan of having zones in the garden...I prefer to mix everything. lol sorry for wandering of the topic!

    :)
     
  5. murray

    murray Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    hey cornie

    >I'm not a fan of having zones in the garden...I prefer to mix everything.

    maybe i'm missing something, but as i understand it, everything in the garden is in one zone, right? so you can ramble onto any garden-related topic and still be 'on' topic for that particular forum.

    and i'm totally with you on the plain english. that's why i suggested we rewrite the zone descriptions for our needs. if you have any ideas to that end, don't be shy..

    m.
     
  6. FREE Permaculture

    FREE Permaculture Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think if you put up the format your thinking and fine tune it as you go from there, the actual wording ect doesn't need to be anything right away, once you get the feel of how you want it to work, the words will come.
     
  7. murray

    murray Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ben, to be honest, i'm scared of ending up with 20 forums and only 3 or 4 used regularly.

    yes - i believe we need to expand, but i'd much rather do it a little more gradually and see how people like having 5 new subforums to choose from initially... before going all out and expanding to say, 20.

    hope this makes sense..
     
  8. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I would put Monsanto in Zone 0.

    I don't mean that facetiously either. People have talked about Zone 0 as being about how Permaculture design and practise relates to the personal space, the inner space. How we design our lives and community structures to nourish the individual and the society. Where we define our ethics and values...
     
  9. FREE Permaculture

    FREE Permaculture Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    well why not just try what your thinking murray and see how it looks?
     
  10. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I agree with Richard (famous last words?!)...issues that concern us should be in zone 0.

    Will write up a suggestion for zone names a bit later.

    :)
     
  11. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,046
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    E Washington, USA
    Climate:
    Semi-Arid Shrub Steppe (BsK)
    List "B"

    OK all, I'll take a stab at a "straw horse"...something to throw rocks at, a place to depart from...

    Zone 0
    Sheltered Living
    Topics that directly affect our time spent indoors
    Sleeping, cooking, eating, family, friends, reading, crafting, teaching, learning, communicating...

    Zone 1
    Extended Living
    Topics that directly affect the area adjacent to our shelter
    Play areas, meditative areas, herbs, vehicles, solar/water collection, ...

    Zone 2
    Intensive Growth
    Topics that directly affect our gardens and livestock
    Vegetables, berries, chooks, cultivation, irrigation, ...

    Zone 3
    Extended Growth
    Topics that directly affect our long term growth projects
    Orchards, crops, aquaculture, fences, ...

    Zone 4
    Interpreted Wild
    Topics that directly affect guided natural areas
    Woodlots, gathered foodstuffs, water cachement, wildlife interaction, community & neighbors, ...

    Zone 5
    Extended Wild
    Topics that directly affect our natural areas
    Natural resources, wildlife, politics, human species, ...

    This is a list that's meant to be adjusted, modified, or just plain thrown out 8) ...just a little attempt to help us converge. :D and worth the full two cents allocated to me! :lol:

    9anda1f
     
  12. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,590
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    9anda1f


    Very nice indeed.

    [PS Murray - looks like you have a helper and he's even got a name like an elf]

    mike
     
  13. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    Messages:
    927
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ok..have bitten off more than I can chew here! Twas an interesting lesson in just how much I do not know!

    This is what I've come up with...must admit I'm not happy with it, but think you can get the general drift...

    Zone 0….The Homestead. General Chat… Come in and introduce yourself! Issues affecting, and important to Permaculture. Energy (Solar, Wind, Biogas etc). Home and Building Construction.

    Zone 1….The Vegetable and Herb Garden. What and when to grow, and how to grow it. Planting Guilds. Composting and Worm Farming.

    Zone 2….Animals. Poultry, Pigs, Cattle, Fish, Bees, Goats, Sheep and Blue Spotted Skate Boarding Elephants. General care…Breeding…Food for…Housing…Uses…From Farm to Dinner Plate…

    Zone 3….The Orchard and Food Forest. Designs and setup. Pest Problems and Control. Maintenance. What Tree is this?

    Zone 4…. Native Animals and Bushland. What to look for when buying land. Water: Dams and Ponds. Water tanks. Erosion Problems. Wind Breaks. Fire guarding your property. Growing your own firewood. Maintaining a natural environment for native plants and animals.

    Zone 5…..Links, Upcoming Events, Permaculture Jobs. Links to interesting sites. Buy and sell. Buy, Trade, Sell or Give away. Advertise PDC’s and Permaculture Jobs.

    :)
     
  14. Ramon

    Ramon Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hi Murray,
    I like the fact that there are lots of useful and interesting topics in one place. If you need to split, you might consider looking through the headings and trying to assign a word to each and see if you come up with any patterns/themes. If you record a 'hit count' against each, you might have a good system for divisions based on what people actually think about and are familiar with since not everyone knows the zoning structure. You can also group based on the number of entries so you don't get dead areas.

    I had a really quick look and thought I say the following emerging:
    Plants & planting
    Compost & soil
    Water & energy
    Inspirational/Misc
    Hot topics/in the news
     
  15. Ramon

    Ramon Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Sorry, forgot "Animals"
     
  16. murray

    murray Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    hey hey - thanks for the interest.

    me too. but i finally think that some organization is needed. there's so much happening now that it make sense to move some things around. i don't think we'll lose the vibrancy and we'll gain a little organization and the possibility to increase participation too.

    i'm working up some subforum area ideas based on all suggestions received so far.. natrually more ideas and suggestions still welcome.

    m.
     
  17. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,335
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This is where the Zone system template used for discussion headings would fall down IMO Murray - assuming of course you do want it to refer directly back to teaching on Zones.

    Zone 0 includes sprouts and other indoor plants, rooftop gardens and a lot of 'gardening' - possibly even aquaponics - anything in, on top of or directly attached to the house. For example, a balcony garden is in Zone 0.

    Zone 1 is full of growing things as you say, but mostly things which need regular attention, picking etc...but again, it's loosely defined. For example, you could have a windbreak in Zone 1, or any of the other outer Zones. If someone wants to talk about windbreaks, which Zone applies? Same goes for vines...they could feasibly end up in any Zone from 0 through 4.

    The heading confusion continues into Zone 2...small livestock are generally Zone 2, but this can't necessarily be the 'animal' discussion place...someone may well keep a worm farm, guinea pigs, rabbits etc in Zone 0 or 1, or heavier 'herd' type animals in Zone 3. Same again for orchards...fruit trees could end up in Zones 0 through 4. Fish could be in a pond in Zone 0, 1, 2 or 3, or in an aquaponics system in Zone 0, 1 or 2.

    The confusion continues through Zone 3...this is generally for extensive free range and broadscale needs...which includes plants which need lots of space and block planting for pollination needs such as corn and various types of grains, pumpkins, vines and other not highly productive plants, plus heavier herding type animals.

    Zones 4 & 5 are identical in some ways, the difference being that 4 is managed and not necessarily native species, while 5 generally isn't managed much and is generally wholly native. But do native species belong in Zone 5? Probably not as they could well be a tall windbreak in Zone 1, or be present in a totally different form (annual, perennial, groundcover, vine, tuber, fern, palm, mushroom etc) in any other Zone for that matter. Fish and aquaculture in general could well be present in any Zone - they all need water except Zone 5, which may well have a river or lake.

    Please understand, I'm not trying to be difficult here for the sake of it, I'm just trying to point out that IMO the Zone system is far more complex, flexible and varied than you seem to be interpreting it...if certain things are pigeon-holed into Zone whatever, then it really doesn't accurately reflect Permaculture teachings.

    IMO it would be far better (simpler and more accurate is perhaps a better way to put it!) just to ditch the Zone idea...as nice as it may sound at face value.

    Anyway, that's just my $.02... :lol:
     
  18. murray

    murray Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2004
    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    hey jez

    ok - great - that's valuable feedback and it makes sense.

    now that we know what you think *wouldn't* work, how about letting us know what you think *would*?

    :lol:

    m.
     
  19. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,335
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    To be honest Murray, I think breaking something like Permaculture down into subheadings is mighty difficult in that you'd end up with way too many categories of forums, which as you mentioned before, may not each get a lot of posting action.

    I understand your wish to organise things better, but I don't think it's plausible to do the whole thing justice...the solution to growing better fruit trees or whichever topic you can name, may well be in a whole other forum on pest control or composting...if the person is a visitor just looking for info on fruit trees and not posting a question, then they would be none the wiser.

    That's the whole concept of Permaculture - as I understand it anyway - everything you can possibly think of is interrelated in one way or another.

    So I'm sorry, but I can't make any helpful suggestions for splitting things up further...I don't think it can be done beyond what's been done already (splitting up wise) and still properly represent the big picture of Permaculture which is necessary for those people looking for answers to things.

    BTW mate, I just logged back in to alert you to the fact Treehugger has a plug for Geoff and PRI at the moment incase you weren't aware of it.
     
  20. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    g'day murray,

    i don't know mate sounds like it could be going to the complex and unweilding scenario, for me mate the more KISS that there is in a forum the better.

    i suppose it looks untidy sometimes with lots of posts appearing and of course then posts dissapear off the front page quicker, but at least with one click we can see all post and respond to or just read those that interest us.

    maybe a simple format change might work?

    if i can use an as example the way the aussies living simply forum where as a post is placed into a sub forum they all appear on the forums page so you can scan down and see the topics.

    basuically for me it just about fine the way it is.

    len :?
     

Share This Page

-->