No-Dig-ness

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by stuartgrant, Aug 17, 2006.

  1. stuartgrant

    stuartgrant Junior Member

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    Hullo.

    I have some comments and a question about "no-dig" gardening.

    I've been reading "Growing Vegetables South of Australia" by Steve Solomon (published only in TAS, obviously). Steve recommends plenty of digging to start a new patch of garden, but generally recommends very little digging thereafter (but plenty of light, shallow tilling). He also says to avoid adding too much organic matter (i.e more than a few cm cover per year) because Tasmanian soils are deficient in everything but potassium (K) and adding decomposed organic matter sourced from Tassie merely concentrates that over-supply of K. Finally, Steve suggests that the no-dig method of layering mulch after mulch after mulch on a garden bed is not suitable for a Tasmanian climate - although it IS suitable for the climate of the original inventor (Ruth Stout, who wrote "Gardening Without Work", lived in Connecticut where summers are hotter and wetter and where winters are much colder).

    Here's the question: Has anyone defied this local recommendation (ie. in a Tasmanian - Canberran type climate)? Steve says "in our climate, by the second summer of permanent mulch slater and earwig and slug populations reach plague proportions" (p.136). Has anyone experienced this? I have! BUT, I haven't been trying long enough to see if predators of those pests (I only get grief from slugs) build up and control them. Surely "plague proportions" of such things wouldn't last forever?

    By the way, I'm not looking for an appraisal of Steve Solomon's ideas because there will always be disagreement on such matters...

    Any experiences welcome.
     
  2. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    I haven't gardened in your climate Stuart, so I'm not going to be very helpful, except to say that slugs are a problem here in our subtropical deep mulch too. Of course if I look up what my Permaculture book says about slug problems, it says no I don't its a duck deficiency, and its true we swapped the ducks for poi...
    My mother is gardening in Glenorchy though. She talks about a book she is following by some bloke from Oregon who has settled in Tassie. Same bloke?
    I don't know what he is saying about deep mulch only retaining potassium? Cow shit or sheep shit or your shit from Tasmania is going to roughly the same amount of nitrogen as the same stuff sourced from my island I would have thought.
    I say, keep piling that mulch on!
     
  3. stuartgrant

    stuartgrant Junior Member

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    Yep, that's him. Had only been here four year before he published the book. But then he moved from a VERY similar climate.

    Well apparently shits aint shits. :p
    I'm not sure that I can do his argument justice, but basically he says that what an animal is fed determines the quality of their manure - especially animals which graze (on grass from depleted soils). As such, he doesn't consider manure to be a fertiliser but, once composted, good organic matter (p.13). Chook manure is strong enough, he says, but also expensive. He uses a mixture of seedmeal (NPK 6-4-2 approx), lime and other stuff. Canola meal is cheap here.

    As for K concentration, the problem is when people bring in ADDITIONAL K-deficient organic matter to their systems. Solomon says: "Our grass hay and manure from animals eating that grass contain a lot less calcium and magnesium and phosphorous and proteins (nitrogen) than hay or manure from unleached (minerally-balanced) fertile soil. Build a compost heap of that poor stuff and rot it down and you end up further concentrating potassium" (p.122).
     
  4. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    This soloman Clearly isnt a Permie.....

    A good permie would ignore 1/2 his theory.with Chooks or as ricky says ducks,introduced to the system can solve that problem compltly,

    As for the excess "K" how the hell can anyone put a figure that covers every other cold place is beyond me.......Nature woulnt allow super concentrations of any one of natures goodies....If done naturally......

    Ive mulched my garden/area every yer except this year.(no nead this year)

    my mulch depths range from 1 cm above ground to 30 cm in different areas of my block7 winters of ducks,chooks and short time geese,coupled with many billions of worms,slaters etcetc etcetc etc.Have made my land the healthiest on the planet 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)..

    The only time i use a spade,shovel or digging device was first month,planting 20 fruit trees that was a mattic,nothing could get a spade into the ground...

    It was like concrete,clay,pebble rock,crappy was a cheek calling it soil..

    it was an car parking area in the previous occupiers back garden....

    I too belong to the no dig method group of people....Bills mulching has been more then ample with mine. straw and woodchips......

    My garden is expressly designd to the no dig, little work examples......
    thats how i interpreted his theories(Bill Mollison)...

    AFTER travelling thru South Australias farming land back in March i can understand his need to dig.....South Ozs land mass is "natures Rockery"
    New Zealand must have 1/2 of SAs top soils..(oppologies to crow eaters).

    I have done permaculture on a variety of "Ground structures" eg sand,clay,rock,.There is certainly NO nead to START DIGGING, and if needed can be one when and if required.....

    This of course can all be ignored if you are under 20 yrs of age or have accsess to earth moving machinary:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Tezza
     
  5. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    It is true of course, manure is only as good as what goes in the other end... Of course, if you keep chooks and ducks their manure isn't all that expensive, is it?
    Here on Maui our soil is calcium deficient, because we never were ocean floor like most of the world, so there were never fish bones and what not accumulating... Pretty much the only way to improve the calcium is to import some kind of lime, I think.
    You know, some times I really wish I had more than grade 10 science! Soil chemistry is such a mystery to me!
    Stuart, I looked at your blog. Good on you for starting the community garden! May it grow lots of good food.
     
  6. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    What do you do with your eggshells Ricky?


    Let em dry,Crushem small,nothing too fussy and then scatter everywhere.

    Insects...Dont they make?leave,contain calciam via the shells?What do you doo with your fish scraps.

    Tezza
     
  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    um yeh well guess his career choice is to sell tomes hey? big bucks in that, maybe on his way to his first mill' by now :p

    plants are plants and gardens are gardens, just some plants grow better in warmless climates and other grow better in coldless climates.

    but they all have their roots in the medium, soil that is.

    i can't see why any tilling at all is needed to do any sort of gardening, since i learnt about no-dig/till, no-weed raised garden beds i'm convinced i will never have to turn another clump of dirt.

    see our page in the building a garden section for what we do, and then link to https://ausgarden.com go to edible gardens in the menu on the left and see our latest project which is now yielding its harvest.

    len :D 8)
     
  8. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Checked out the site Len ...Thats what i wished Id had Done was as i go photos.....Up till 3 years ago i never really owened a camera.....


    I got hours an hours of Home made Permaculture tapes of my places.but hard finding that special shot,in so many hours..

    Love the straw bed garden....and they say you cant grow vegies on the lawn

    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    That Paradisso is that you?his garden is sure healthy and rampant in 2 yrs??

    but i spouse thats quennsland for ya not cold dry west oz :( :( :( :( :(

    Tezza
     
  9. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day tezza,

    yeh a picture is worth a thousands words hey :lol: :lol: (now len thinks he's a philosopher) :D

    the best investment i ever made that old digi' cam' it has done me well about to be replaced by a newer version anyday soon and this one will go to the granddaughter.

    yep reckon might just about be able to grow them on a cement driveway hey :lol: just too easy so hoping it inspires others to come out of the closet.

    we are eating abundance of broccoli and silverbeet from the brand new garden right now.

    no i'm gardenlen not paradisi, he/she does well also out there inspiring others the simple way.

    this garden has only been on the go since easter, how's that??

    len 8) :) :D
     
  10. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    Totally OT:

    [​IMG]

    :) Congrats, Richard
     
  11. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    I don't know where he got the idea that all Tassie soils are the same composition...they vary greatly depending on which parts were once underwater and which weren't and a lot of other factors...but anyway...you're not after a critique. :lol:

    As Richard and our 'elder statesman' 8) Tezza point out, chooks or ducks clear up the 'plague' issue with the pests mentioned...and I am also very much of the no-till persuasion...there's no need.

    If you can't get poultry involved for one reason or another, just set barriers around your plantings (wood ash, coffee etc) against the slugs, use traps, or don your best khaki's regularly and go on a vegie patch massacre with the torch in hand an hour or two after dark...especially after rain! :lol:

    Also, try not to leave havens for them where they can build up or at least check them regularly if it's unavoidable. Or alternately, deliberately leave havens and use that to your advantage...you know were you'll find them then. :D

    It's probably worth pointing out that Permaculture originated in Tassie...so it's not like the tried and tested methods mentioned above by several are from a totally different climate or scenario than what Solomon is talking about...they're from an identical one.
     

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