New Community Vegie Patch - advice needed

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by stuartgrant, Aug 17, 2006.

  1. stuartgrant

    stuartgrant Junior Member

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    Hi all.

    Myself and some others are in the early planning stages of starting an organic community vegie patch here in Launceston.

    The land is comprised of two similar plots, both approx 500m2 with a gentle slope and full grass cover. I'm told they haven't been used for a while although one housed a pony for a while. The soil seems excellent - a nice dark gritty loam with earthworms in every spade-full.

    Our resident gardening guru gave us some suggestions (before we'd seen the site - and before we knew how big it was) which were:
    - ignore the grass-cover - put newspaper straight on top
    - bring in some topsoil (only 10cm deep and only on the rows)
    - Put sawdust mulch between rows (he says that the alleged reasons not to do this - nitrogen draw-down - have never happened to him)
    - fertilise (organically) and plant

    Based on the excellent quality of the soil and the fact that it'll require several hundred dollars to do so, I'm thinking that we won't bring in topsoil.

    My question is: what are some other options for breaking 500m2 of virgin soil economically, organically and effectively? Raised beds? No-dig? So-and-so's patented method?

    All advice welcome.
     
  2. FREE Permaculture

    FREE Permaculture Junior Member

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    sounds like a great project, gonna have fun that's for sure.
    all i can add is i'd prefer a raised bed with maybe old bits of timber you can find.

    and the other thing is the grass, it's probably ok to just cover it but i like to skim the top off with a spade, and skim like a foot outside the bed.

    instead of topsoil if your going that way, why not straight out compost?
    chooks too would be great for future manure and that.

    that's all i have to add but there's some real guru's here that will have more.

    anyways, make sure you take some pics so we can see the progress.
     
  3. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    Mow the grass as short as possible. Lightly water. Then place wet newspaper (at least six pages thick) down, amking sure you overlap the paper. Mulch well (at least 6 - 8 inches). Water mulch.

    If you wanted you could water the cut grass with a water/molasses mixture...this should help the bacteria break the grass down a bit quicker.

    Wait until the grass has broken down, then plant away!

    While that's happening get as many compost bins/piles going as you can. A worm farm or two.

    Have fun!

    :)
     
  4. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Hehe...I'm going to start out the exact opposite to Corn here, no offense mate, this is just how I was taught to do it and have always had great success with.

    Let the grass grow as long as you can before it goes to seed and don't water it at all (IMO and from how I've been taught, cutting grass short and watering reinvigorates it, whereas letting it get long and dry means it is at its weakest), flatten it (being careful to not compact the soil in the process), then put down 6+ sheets thick of newspaper or relatively thin cardboard in an overlapped fashion like you would lay roof tiles or shingles and soak it well once it's laid.

    Then put down a 20cm layer of 'feeder mulch' like lucerne (should be available quite easily in Launceston) a good sprinkling of good manure (make sure it is organic and comes from an unwormed animal or you'll kill off much of your headstart with the worms already present), blood and bone or another organic fertiliser, a loose layer of pea straw or similar, another (smaller than the first) sprinkling of manure/fertiliser, then top off with compost and mulch or just plant into pockets of compost in the straw.

    You can get your compost going while you're waiting for the grass to grow long, or just get compost heaps ready for when you pioneer the next area.

    This is how I did all my garden beds, including two in the Launceston area...as long as your soil is not terrible (which it isn't from what you say) and you haven't got any psycho runner grasses this will work fine (if you have then work hard on killing the grass with a much thicker paper/cardboard layer and leave buried in mulch for a few months checking periodically to see if any runners have broken through then remove them), but you'd better get cracking soon if you want to get things in for the spring...I assume you want to start ASAP and have tried to tailor my suggestions to that! :D

    When you put your beds in do them along the contour of the slope (if practical) to help prevent your top-fed nutrients from running away on you in heavy rains. It'd also be well worth planting a good windbreak screen against prevailing winds - preferably something like Morus nigra (Mulberry) or Chamaecytisus palmensis (Tagasaste) - just examples off the top of my head - which can give you a supply of onsite mulch as well as a bit of shelter.

    Personally, I'd pass on the topsoil...it's expensive and there's really no need - as you've already decided!

    As Ben and Corn suggested, raised beds, chooks/ducks and worms would be other great additions for your little plot(s) if you can work them into your design.

    Probably missed something important...I'm tired tonight...been a long day! :lol:
     
  5. FREE Permaculture

    FREE Permaculture Junior Member

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    hehe, this thread isn't having much luck :)
    len must of written a few thousand words on this and it keeps getting wiped out by the mysterious toffee apple hacker.

    I'm gonna copy and keep anything I want for future refference on my pc as things don't seem to stick in this forum lately :)
     
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    are things crook in talerook?

    did i actually ahve some posts here or was it a dream?

    len
     
  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    stuartgrant,

    did you see my earlier post before it went wherever it went??

    len :?: :?: :?: :?:
     
  8. hedwig

    hedwig Junior Member

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    is it a private thing or do you want to start a community garden group?
    Some suggestions:
    think of the watering- is there water?
    tools?
    are you able to pick up scraps at your local supermarket/restaurants etc?
     
  9. stuartgrant

    stuartgrant Junior Member

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    That blackhole...

    Hi everyone,

    Thanks for the replies.

    This is a confusing thread! My fault; I re-started the thread when this one disappeared, and then the second one disappeared!

    Len, I didn't see a message from you in this thread... But you did reply to my other thread, which was more specifically about no-dig methods... and it was, in effect, an answer to this question. Well, you suggested I read your website anyway. I did and it was useful! Except probably not practicable on our large scale. It would be quite expensive anyway...

    Hedwig, this is a community garden project. As far as water and tools go, we're going to make do with what we can for now. Otherwise we'll never get planted for spring! It will probably be BYO tools until we get funding, and it's a residential area so water won't be a problem. Not to mention that Tassie is usually okay for rainwater most of the year. The site seems to have deep soil which means we can wait longer between irrigations (see https://tinyurl.com/orkft for info on "dry gardening").
     
  10. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day stuartgrant,

    not sure waht you mean by practical on a large scale? but basically you need to be thinking outside the square what i did natually won't work in its entirety in all cases, my latest project is a temporary quick get it going effort, and at 6 bucks a bale would be too dear for me as well plus the bales take up too much physical space.

    but the underlying story is waht needs to be grasped the rpoces that went into making any raised bed a success then you adapt to suit your needs.

    but the crunch point i made wa keep the beds no wider than 1 meter so gardeners don't need to compact the growing area by walking on it, and i found 6 meters long because us gardener can be a tad lazy and not want to walk around somehting 14 meters long say.

    i also said that you don't need any edging and that you could use hay bales broken up into 1/4 or 1/3 length biscuits to create paths then that would also then creat some depth for the garden area plus you would have a soft path material to walk on.

    i also then said that 500mm (50cm if you wish) paths are a good size whilst the beds are bare just than when you begin planting veges will over hand the path so then it can become a single track walkway and no room to push a barrow, but then wider paths may take too much room like they would in my current scenerio.

    is that about what i said chickadee :lol: :lol: :D

    also do it in small packages that can be manamged better and jsut keep adding as you get one done or wahtever trying to fo the whole kit and kaboodle all at once always seems loosly managed.

    now i got to visit the local demition yard today and they have heaps of that 10" wide clip lock roof iron that i used in my earlier gardens, at $1.50 a lineal meter that might yet be my best option, long lasting self supporting and easy to assemble as garden edges, so the 6 meter lengths will give me gardens 5 meters loing 1 meter wide and with a couple if cuts in the rib of the iron so it will bend and 4 s/s screw the job is done, too easy hey 8) ?

    len :idea:
     
  11. stuartgrant

    stuartgrant Junior Member

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    I think what I meant was that it would be too expensive for the size of bed we're planning (which is 6.5m x 15m - there's room for another 4 beds that size, too).

    We want to have the lowest possible set-up and maintenance costs. The less we have to ask for money to start the garden, the quicker we'll get used to doing things nice and cheap. This money-consciousness isn't just because I have Scottish genes; it's functional, practical and will encourage us to recycle and be resourceful.

    However, we do want some raised beds later, in which case your website will be invaluable. The raised beds will hopefully provide wheelchair access.

    Wow, that confirms our choices of dimensions! :D Our plan is to have 6.5m x 15m beds, divided length-ways into 4 beds of 1250m wide, with paths 500mm wide in between them. Okay, so 15m long is quite a bit, but 1.25m is not too wide to jump over if you're lazy...

    That sounds like great advice. :D Actually, I was told that by the coordinator of a local community garden when I went on a tour. They have over 1000sq. m of garden beds now and she pleaded me to start small!! I think a single 100sq. m plot should be a good size to start with. Especially with so much to plant this time of year.

    And thanks for re-writing your post Len!
     
  12. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    I'd make the paths a little bigger. 60 - 75cm....more room to use a wheelbarrow etc...place to put down seedling trays...room to squash a snail...

    :)
     
  13. Squeak

    Squeak Junior Member

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    1. Do soil tests. Not only to determine what's in them but what you've got. This lays your foundation for everything. Think small and think soil.

    2. Would make the paper layer 2 pages thick and wet prior to laying down. If you make it too thick, it will take too long to break down or might not break down at all.

    3. No sawdust. Counterproductive in Launie climate. Use lucerne instead.

    4. No need to fertilise at planting if you are using good compost.
     
  14. stuartgrant

    stuartgrant Junior Member

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    Sorry Squeak, but I actually disagree with all four points! Guess that's why they call it a forum.

    Soil test: we won't bother because of the cost. I don't actually know how much they are, I just know that we're setting up the whole thing for $200-300 which rules them out! Personally, I'd love to get one done because I'm curious, but unless we were intending to sell a lot of produce, I couldn't justify it.

    Newspaper: it's a toss-up between having newspaper thick enough to supress the grass and thin enough to allow root penetration of our earliest-planted seeds. I'd prefer to go thicker because at least we can punch holes through it when planting if necessary. The lime/fertiliser should help to break down it and the grass quickly.

    Sawdust: not sure what you mean by counterproductive specifically? If you mean that it will rob the soil of nitrogen, then yes it will (theoretically, anyway). But it's only on the paths. And it's cheap and easily sourced. Lucerne would be good for mulching the beds, I agree.

    Fertiliser: I guess we could do without it but I don't know what kind of topsoil we'll be getting so I'll probably add some anyway. It's organic, slow-release fertiliser so it can't do any harm.

    I feel a bit :evil: disagreeing with you so much... I'm certainly open to suggestions if my reasoning is flawed...
     
  15. Squeak

    Squeak Junior Member

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    I didn't realise that the contents of this thread were up for contention, Stuart. As asked, I was just providing suggestions based on my past experience in community gardens as well as my own (as opposed to being an armchair commentator). My suggestions work which is why I suggested them :D

    Not sure where you got the cost of the soil test from. My kit cost me less than $14 and the other tests, which are quite basic and yet fundamental, can be found at various points in Mollison's and Morrow's texts are conducted with the use of elbow grease, buckets, a shovel, a watch and some water among other household items. The basis of all growth starts with the soil and to ignore this would be do so at peril. In this instance, I'm not going to bother quoting principles and parts of text but will point to commonsense: no foot, no horse: no soil, no garden.

    Really not sure what you intend to do with the newspaper exactly now that you've mentioned punching holes through it but newspaper doesn't prevent growth per se. When placed as a layer under new soil/compost, it acts as a barrier between the weed/pest and new soil. This method is found more in permaculture than organic farming. But if improving or maintaining the fertility of your soil is your aim (and it should be), placing less newspaper down makes breakdown easier so that the entire bed benefits, not just the growth above the barrier and thus places less stress on your gardening efforts.

    The basis of permaculture is keeping things simple and, at best, minimalist. If you don't need it, you don't use it.

    My final and additional suggestion would be that you buy a book on organic gardening and/or permaculture and read it.

    Cheers!
     
  16. stuartgrant

    stuartgrant Junior Member

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    G'day everyone.

    Thankyou for all the replies so far; this has been helpful!

    I wanted to reply to some of the things I've missed along the way, plus ask lots more questions.

    Chickadee suggested raised beds with edging.
    Yes, we could, but I heard a nasty rumour that thick edging can ruin drainage - which is the point of raised beds in the first place. Not sure if it's definitively true, but it saves us money for now!

    Then Cornonthecob and Jez disagreed on whether mowing the grass was useful or not.
    The grass isn't very long, and we don't have time to let it grow and dry out, sorry Jez. But your notion of the grass being invigorated by mowing makes intuitive sense. So I probably won't mow, sorry Corn. :p

    Hedwig asked: "are you able to pick up scraps at your local supermarket/restaurants etc?"
    Good question! I'd love to, but does anyone know the laws around this? I've heard that they mostly don't let you do this any more.


    On to my other questions:
    Which way should I align the beds? The site faces southwest and is on a slight slope. Should I put in the beds running across the slope (northwest to southeast) OR down the slope (northeast to southwest)? Hope that's not too confusing!

    Plant spacing?? I wanted to use fairly wide spacings (eg. brassicas 600mm x 600mm, zucchini/cukes 1m x 1m, tomatoes 1m x 1m) based on dry gardening methods (see https://tinyurl.com/orkft) but maybe this is too wide given that the soil depth is not established yet. That is, because soil activity and humus levels probably aren't yet what we want to maintain. We need spacing that will allow a week between waterings for established plants.

    Just to update, I think we have decided to bring in topsoil. But only 10cm deep and only for the beds (ie. not the paths). Another local community garden gets large loads of 3:1 moo-poo:sand for its topsoil. Sounds good! And cheaper than I expected, too.

    Thanks again for the input. Keep it coming!
     
  17. RobWindt

    RobWindt Junior Member

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    FWIW I use raised beds edged with dry stacked bricks and rubble, leaving a quarter brick gap in the lower rows for drainage, and definitely prefer to run beds across the contour to slow runoff and soil loss
    Cheers
    Rob
     
  18. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Going across the contour is better Stuart as Rob says...sorry, that's what I was trying to say earlier.

    Sometimes you can source the hollow besser brick rejects very cheap - worth asking around about the cost of a couple of pallets worth. They cut down the surface area of the brick, thereby increasing drainage (plus the hole(s) is connected to the soil of course)and also give another planting area - which can be especially helpful for perennials you want to exclude from the main bed or that tend to take over if let loose.

    Spacing is one of those 'how long is a piece of string' questions...depends a lot on variety...how much you water when you do, how thick mulch is etc...wouldn't hurt to use a few different experimental plantings with different varieties and then next year you'll have the benefit of hindsight.

    Check that your 'moo-poo' is not from wormed cows...shouldn't be (should be well aged and/or fermented) but worth double checking.

    Also, incase you weren't aware, it's probably worth a visit to the UWU (Unemployed Workers Union) on Frederick St - just down from the diagonally opposite corner to the Pizza Pub - from memory they used to have heirloom seeds either free or very cheap for members and membership is not much...they may also be able to help in other ways. Worth a visit while you're in town or a phone call anyway.
     
  19. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Stuartgrant,

    Firstly, good onya for attempting such a thing. You can already see here that a diversity of opinion will confront you with anything you do..... Just carry on regardless.

    Sawdust - being a community garden I think sawdust is a great way to deliniate and create big paths. Many of your visitor will have 'big feet', and wont know a brocolli seedling from a weed.

    I am 'anti-spacing' per se. If you commit a bed to brassicas, yes they look pretty if all spaced out but if the seeds are spread thinly where they are to grow some grow fast and others may even remain at the 4 leaf stage till they can see daylight. This spreads the harvest over a number of months. Brassicas are best at this cos they transplant very easily. I would aim to plant them about 6'' apart and eat the thinnings or transplant any clumps. This in effect slows them up and stretches the harvest window.

    Any gaps in a productive garden will have to be mulched or weeded.

    Raised garden beds are a treat especially besser block ones as they provide a seat too. Railway sleepers and logs are fine too.

    Say with something like tomatoes. I plant seeds direct where they are to grow but at the same time I plant some in seed trays to fill in any blanks. The ones in the seed trays will be at least 3 weeks behind the ones grown direct. Also amongst your group you will find someone who is better at seedlings and will enjoy fussing around with them.

    I would start at the front of the garden and evolve your way backwards.

    Allocate a few beds for local school groups and remember to plant sunflowers. Children seem to marvel at their height and growth. Also climbing beans, telephone peas anything that goes up quickly add a great visual impression to a garden. Remember to add colour to your garden with things like nasturiums and marigolds. Just put them in any spare spaces and in between other plants. I have always believed that flowers look and make a vegetable garden feel happy.

    Before I spent any money on soil I would consider some sort of hothouse and a decent compost bin set-up that people can use to drop off stuff. A couple of tip loads of sheep manure would be worth buying. Sheep manure is excellent, it is normally vacuumed up from under shearing sheds and has aged for years.

    Consider a couple of old baths with water chestnuts or watercress and a couple of googly-eyed goldfish will go well next to the hothouse and add thermal mass. Remember to cut some 6x6 concrete mesh to fit down in the bath to water level. This will stop kids and birds falling in. The chestnuts & cress wont mind.

    Ask your members to wrap their vegie peelings in a couple of layers of newspaper and bring them down once a week for the compost heap.

    Two very fast growers to get you started are Senposai & Rocket both you can start picking in about 3 weeks.

    Any areas not made into beds plant with pumpkins & melons. Scalp the grass, make some nice mounds and poke some seeds in. Pumpkins can get their roots down many metres in most soils and will compete with grass given a head start. You can move the vines and keep mowing.

    I think mostly what I am trying to convey is that dont expect too much or take too much on at first unless you have had plenty of local experience.

    Hope this helps. Best of luck and keep us posted.

    floot
     
  20. stuartgrant

    stuartgrant Junior Member

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    Hi all,

    Thanks to Rob, Jez and Floot for their suggestions. ALL of you suggested edging, so perhaps we'll use some! I WAS going to run the beds down the hill, in which case edging wouldn't be so important (because erosion wouldn't be so much of a problem), but since you also ALL suggested running the beds the other way (across the contour) I agree that edging is a good idea. A nearby community garden uses cheap-looking 6x1 planks (~20cm high) with gaps at the corners for their edges - that would be another option if bricks etc weren't available cheaply. Not as good for drainage though...

    Spacings: yeah, I agree - it's a vague and useless question in essence. Wide spacing such as the ones I listed above mean (according to its proponent) that you only need to give each plant a good watering once a week. And you only need to replace what gets evaporated from the plant itself - since the surface of the soil remains dry and effectively stops further evaporation from there. Using 1/2-strength liquid fertiliser helps.

    Jez - no I hadn't heard of the UWU. I've got some seeds from the other community garden I keep mentioning, but I'm always up for more free/cheap seed. By the way, are you local? You can put your location next to your name by going to your profile. But it looks like you've been here long enough to know that - and maybe you're choosing not to!

    Floot - not sure what you mean by "start at the front of the garden and evolve your way backwards"? Care to explain? There is a school very close to the site so I reckon we'll try to get them participating. And there happens to be a bath lying around in my neglected garden (we rent) which I could safely take to use for aquatic plants. I love water chestnuts. Frogs would be good too - apparently they're the ultimate slug assassin!

    6-7 different people SO FAR have advised me in one way or another to "go slowly/take it one step at a time/start small/don't expect too much too soon". I bet none of you knew how much I needed that advice! :? So thanks. And feel free to keep advising!
     

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