With this I do agree Markos, especially as we continue to burn the landscape habitually just as the original inhabitants did. We will blindly believe it's all "natural" anyway (just as the original inhabitants believed) while completely failing to recognise this was not nature's intended course. We helped shape it by human hand.
What you have quoted is a statement mouseinthehouse, now I challenge you to find in the paper, the evidence to back that statement up. They have mentioned archaeological evidence, while at the same time being very transparent about the fact that no evidence to date can verify when indigenous Australians arrived. Do the sums on those two presentations. They don't quite add up. So in failing to substantiate the statement, I hereby take it as professional opinion. That is not misconduct, in a sense that it is standard practice to provide a professional opinion on "available" data. What validates any specific claim however, is the evidence.
Well, now you know why grant monies are obtained. If not so much that scientists have to lie, but they merely leave out the not so favourable results and data to their research. Then exaggerate and embellish on the positive material. Personally, I think the unpublished data material would go along way in they others may not repeat the same mistakes and take the wrong road in similar research. But unfortunately, this scientific obsession with fame, glitter and glory prevents many researchers from admitting anything. *sigh*
I would agree that there are adaptive mechanisms within many plants to re-establish after fires, but this is not always the case. Many of the present fires are unnatural and life extinction threatening. Year after year fires threaten to destabilize any future seed production for many species. The USA's Control Burn programs are a total failure. They have done ZERO to prevent megafires, save property and lives. I'm not talking about fire maintenance measures around housing areas, I'm talking about useless control burns in the middle of nowhere. Only now are they realizing this. Most of the continued control or prescribed burning programs have ZERO to do with science as they do with ideology and other politics. I'm leaving for the States in two months and I'll photograph and document what I'm talking about.
Well he is correct in the sense that nature is driven by it's genetic instinctive programming. You can also see this from the interconnectedness with which it actually cooperates together, unless otherwise thrown off balance by human idiocy. Of course then it's only normal to blame Fires, insects or other invasive plants, birds, animals etc for the seeming out of control situation. Humans are the only creatures which have the capacity to destroy the natural world by choice. Of course modern science apparently wants to believe we are driven by our selfish genes so it's not our fault. If true, then threads with subjects such as this are a waste of time and their is nothing we can do to fight what is after all natural.
Some human actions are beneficial, some are detrimental, but all take place within nature, in my opinion. The consequences of detrimental actions are "natural," not "supernatural," that is they take place within the laws of nature. I just have a personal pet peeve with the idea that human action is not "natural" or that humans are somehow not part of nature. This attitude of humans as separate from nature has, I think, enabled us to ignore consequences of our actions. It stems from the religious idea of the special creation of Man as separate from the rest of creation, I think, and even now in a scientific age continues to permeate discussion of human activity in regard to nature. Instead of allowing us to evaluate human behavior as on a continuum between beneficial and detrimental, we continue to see all human behavior as "unnatural" outside of nature and nature's laws. I don't personally see nature as having intention, only consequences within certain parameters.
Not true at all again. The areas in the US where this was practiced is now a major US city and suburb. The reason for the adaptation of nature in that part of the world is because like many indigenous cultures of North America, they worked with nature, & not against her. Biosphere adaptation of diversity, arid, and moisture conditions are not because of interventions of man, but like Permaculture, they worked with the local fauna & flora. As for the Aborigines of Oz, they did the same. They learned to work with, not against and change it for themselves. I actually know exactly how, & why they do the fires they do & your claims come across as an elliptical argument with a great many missing premises.
Wow, I don't know where the God and Religion thing came in, but clearly if this is now a debate about no absolutes. If true, then whatever humans do which may have damaging consequences with regards to continued life on earth, then they, nor their stupid ignorant actions can be judged as wrong. Why it's all part of that philosophical "Circle of Life". That would even make such discussions as this forum a waste of time. Even Monsanto's pursuit of a global Food Monopoly and rearranging life as they see fit wouldn't be wrong either. I did read something today that made sense: "The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than Society (science) acquires wisdom" - Isaac Asimov The only problem being that some knowledge is clearly a waste of time for no other reason than it's wrong. *sigh*
As far as Native Americans go and their use of fire, I've enjoyed reading Chaparral Biologist Richard Halsey's take on the Native American and their reasons for using fires. Native American Burning & Natural Fire Regimes Problems with current assumptions I don't look at the native peoples of any area who lived off the land as mere animals in nature. They were/are human beings with all the same human imperfections and failings as we do today and often times driven by the same selfish motivations for much of what they did. Running Buffalo off cliffs was convenient and wasteful at the same time. Fires were often used in warfare and to kill off Grizzly Bear habitat. But I actually became interested in Native American uses of the Californian native plants and that alone among other reasons got me interested in Botany and looking at the natural world from a Biomimetics or Biomimicry point of view as opposed to this wasteful worldview pimping by either side of the debate. In viewing things that way I have learned far more than the ideologies of either side ever could. One of the huge disappointments I found with Native Americans which is also present in all the other cultures considered primitive and beneath the average European is that like the European, they had a massive hatred and jealousy of each other. That did them in even more than anything the white man did to them. I lived around 7 Indian Reservations and have relatives who are natives on these and I can tell you that stupid hatred still exists to this day Anyway, enjoy the Chaparral page read. At the moment - Cal Fire wants to destroy over a million + acres of land by fire which is totally unnecessary. Most of this is politics and it won't accomplish anything but habitat destruction.
Earth's Internet, you know what? I am a scientist and I am really sick and f***ing tired of people on forums bashing scientists and making generalised claims that all scientists somehow thrive off grants, distort data for their own ends. Of course in amongst thousands and thousands of scientists there will be some who do. But by and large I believe they don't. People like you do not have a monopoly on integrity and a right to paint all scientists like they are some form of evil egomaniacs. It is childish, ignorant and pathetic. I find it incredibly sad and offensive. Thanks for offending me right off the bat and making me feel bad as soon as I get up and have to read this drivel. Now I am going before I say anything else that is even more offensive.
Interesting, the same general adolescent language I've gotten from others promoting themselves as a far superior intellect. Look, I didn't bring up religion, supernatural or any other kooky scenario, you did. Yes I tend to look at nature as a brilliant piece of engineering that should be replicated instead of forcing an inept ideological profit driven method against it. The Truth, The Whole Truth & Nothing But The Truth AND Addendum to The Whole Truth: Is the Survey Lying or Just Not Telling Everything Mouse whatever this is about, you did it to yourself. Funny, I get the same blowout from religious people. Hmmm, maybe there is more similarity that first thought here. Here you go mouse, just for you: ‘Rehab’ helps errant researchers return to the lab As cases of misconduct rise, ethicists test an approach for reforming offenders. Violations of scientific ethics have skyrocketed over the last decade. Plagiarism, falsifying data, outright fraud – these and other examples of ethical breaches have produced some notable scandals. What should be done? Answer now is apparently not Punishment, but Rehabilitation. Perfect! This is like American politicians getting caught red handed and going on an extended resort stay at Club-Fed.
I call BS on his work. He claims, "Lightning caused fires at lower elevations in California are extremely rare." As someone who lived in the Redding, CA area, I know this to be bullshit. As someone who knows the entire gruesome, disgusting story of the history of Shasta County, and what happened from the moment the Spanish arrived to the 49rs. I know this claim of his to be flat out wrong. Thank you historian "Dottie" from the Redding, CA area. :think: You want to talk politics in CA, talk to people from the state of Jefferson. As someone who lived in Northern CA at the base of the mountains, I find the whole Chaparl Biologist thing to be utterly offensive not only to me, but to my "kola's" with his take to the native peoples of the Americas.
I think there might be a whole set of environmentalists who don't want there to be any evidence of appropriate human management of the landscape, because they see all humans as foreign to nature and all human activity in nature as destructive. I think they might not be willing or able to accept a human way of life (permaculture/horticulture) which enables humans to live in the world as a beneficial part of the ecosystem.
Intereesting -> "In California, lightening caused fires typical occur above 5,000 feet in altitude, but are recorded to have occurred at much lower elevations" (Burcham 1987). -> California Coastal Commission: "Natural History of Fire & Flood Cycles" "Within California, lightning frequency generally increases with elevation (e.g., Wells and McKinsey 1995) making it a relative rarity at the moderate elevations within which chaparral dominates.... And although lightning may be rare in the low to middle elevations where chaparral is found, it does still occur with some regularity. (e.g., Wells and McKinsey 1995) -> Interesting read - Fire, Native Peoples, and the Natural Landscape, Page 282 and -> "relative importance varies across the landscape. For example, in the montane coniferous forests of the Southwest, lightning*ignited are abundant and human ignitions are far less important than in 1ower*elevation shrublands of southern California where lightning is uncommon and humans cause the major-ity of fires (Fig. 8.4). -> USGS United States Geological survey: " Impact of Past, Present, and Future Fire Regimes - USGS Western U.S. Well you are not alone in this opinion of California's Chaparral Plant Community. This is why the condition of these ecosystems is in trouble today. Native peoples back then were just as human then as humans are today. They were animals in the landscape, though I do understand the ideological and religious reasons for them being painted that way. Even the aboriginals were and are still human beings, not animals out in nature. It certainly would be interesting to see what would be different if Aboriginals, Africans and Native Americans had been the ones who were industrialized, conquered and colonized Europe which would still be in a ignorant Neanderthal state of being . They have all had an unfortunate reality of opinion shoved down their throats through no fault of their own. Don't take offense, it is what it is.
I find many environmental movements run on emotion as opposed to reality. Many of them (the followers who click like on some FaceBook account, have very limited knowledge, though their heart may be in the right well meaning place.
./sarcasm on Yep, I am sure these people who have not seen the landscape since it has been changed know more then the people who were actually there. IE - All the recorded instances from the Spanish Missions & others from the time period. I guess all this evidence means nothing. ./sarcasm off. To say that the people of these lands (the Americas) were as inhuman as humans are to one another now is again, insulting to a great many tribal people and has zero basis in reality. You cannot know how people acted then without knowing the history of those people up and down the Americas. Permaculture was practiced in the Americas long before European invasion post Columbus as per the records from people who met the Abanaki in North Eastern America to the people in Argentina. (Source - 1491) Lastly, I am done with this thread. I know it is getting warmer yearly, & upon reviewing the energy that went on, and goes on with arguing this point.. I got way more better things to do like plant trees, finish my chicken coop greenhouse, the duck housing, fencing and more.
[SARCASM=ON]I look forward to the revisionist Textbooks. I never realized the Crow and Sioux were in actually living in peace, harmony and brotherly love. I'm actually astonished to finally discover the truth about the the true peace and unity that existed between the Apaches and the Hohokam peoples and other prehistoric agrarian tribes. And I'm happy to find out that the Anasazi (ancient ones) didn't really deforest the Colorado Plateau through ignorance, greed and selfishness. [/SARCASM] Okay, lets take a stroll down Activist Lane. I don't like the way the Spaniards and Catholic Church did their dirty work anymore than you. I hate what happen to not only the Wabanaki, but also the entire Algonquian confederacy of tribes. In fact this past November I wrote a post dealing with my personal choice opposition to celebrating the American holiday called "Thanksgiving" here -> Roast Turkey, Pumpkin Pie and Other Thanksgiving traditions I Rejected back in the Late 1960s . I am not opposed nor do I sit in judgement of others who choose to participate in the holiday, but for me I refrain for personal reasons of disgust of what took place against these people and what a sham the whole meaning of that first peaceful encounter was just a few years later. But I'm also not so blind as to treat these people as viewing them as nothing more than some animal species that needs to be restored back to nature. Yes as I've stated, they were my inspiration as a kid to pursue Botany. I admired their use of native plants and ability to survive in an environment where most Euros would have died without their help. But realistically I discovered they were in many ways no different. The very development of various tribes across the Americas was the result of family clan disputes with a tribe and break off splinter groups would occur creating an entirely new nation. Funny, just like Europe. When I lived up in Anza, California, I tried to help the Cahuilla Indians develop their land into it's former glory of Oak and Pine woodland on their huge Reservation. They have one of the most spectacular natural landscapes around. I approached the Native American Activist family named Madragal up there on the eastern end of the Rez. They weren't interested. They were more obsessed with blaming the white man for their plight and acquiring handouts and other entitlements for themselves than actually doing for themselves. I even offered to pay for the trees and equipment and teach their people (who basically lived a vegetative existence) how things work in nature and how to establish and care for the land again by healing it. They still weren't interested. The funny thing is I was already successful up there with land rehabilitation with 6 white land owners, with the most successful of them following a strict hands on as opposed to mechanized land clearing to establish the trees. But again they weren't interested. Sitting around and stewing in their own self-pity juices and hating the white guy were all that mattered. These people are generations removed from the terrible things done to their ancestors who are long since dead. It amazes me how people want to make excuses for their present lot in life by blaming others. I once found an interesting Jewish saying that was used quite often in history and even recorded in their Hebrew text. So I looked it up and investigated what it meant, because it's still used: It was curious, the Father eats unripe sour grapes and yet the acid from these causes the children's teeth to be dulled or blunted. The Jews apparently used this as an excuse for not taking personal responsibility for their OWN mistakes in life and wanted to blame their ancestors and anyone else from the past. The cross references was telling. To this very day, they still want to blame their misery on things from the past rather than own up to their own modern day mistakes. But the reality is that this is common with most cultures of humankind. Unless they straighten this crap out and get over it emotionally and psychologically, nothing will ever change for them and in the end most of mankind will never have true peace, security and unity if this modern blame game isn't stifled. BTW, just yesterday Live Science came out with an article on the conquering Aztecs (an indigenous culture of the Americas) who subjected other people to their empire building program. Aztec Conquerors Reshaped Genetic Landscape of Mexico Yes, these native American's had a religious practices of ripping peoples hearts out of their bodies in the most barbaric fashion which equaled anything dirty done by the Catholic Spaniards. And yes, the Catholic Spaniards had their own Mexican version of an Inquisition where people were forced to convert or die by the Crossbow. What I'm saying here is be realistic. Yes the Euros did evil things, but most human cultures have done so at one time or another. Now getting back to Native Americans mythology of Fire Science understanding I have no way of knowing nor verifying without the aid of a Wiccan to channel the dead spirits of these people and asking them why. Even then I have problems with spiritism. I understand that today it is popular for Television shows like the History Channel, Discovery Channel and other entertainment programs cloaked under the guise of Science to present this incessant round after round of Ancient Aliens visiting Earth series and having taught these so-called ancient primitive peoples all the wisdom they ever had. I just don't buy it and it amazes me how science even entertains such metaphysical fables like alternate universes etc when by definition everything it does is supposedly to address subjects with Naturalistic ONLY physical explanations. It would seem that myth invention continues to be alive and well. Perfect, I'm happy for you and your permiculture projects conducted on your land. Seriously, I am. So I wish you well.
