Monsanto attacks Permaculture & Organics

Discussion in 'News from around the damp planet' started by Michaelangelica, Aug 30, 2010.

  1. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Not that I think Pc *should* be adapted to large scale, lets carry on as if nothing is wrong now we have this new cool technique farms. What people have said about small scale and local makes so much sense on so many levels.
     
  2. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    I guess most people here have seen "Food Inc." - well that sums up Monsanto - I think that as portable energy becomes more scarce then food miles will start to shrink and locally sourced food will rule, at this point widespread PC will be quite logical until then watch out for big business agriculture as it doesn't appear to have done the Amerikans any favours.
     
  3. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    What Monsanto is really going to do is keep wheat and grain farmers from keeping their own seed. If you've seen the movie, The Future of Food, they plant huge fields of GM wheat and it blows into other fields of normal wheat, and they cross pollenate, and Monsanto claims patent rights, and the farmers who have collected and improved seeds for generations have to throw it all away. A large family farm tried to sue them to no avail. They want theirs to be the only seed, and this applies to small farmers, gardeners, as well as the large growers. Once they start growing there, they don't have to do anything except sit back and let the GM stuff loose.

    But you/re right, there are whole cultures that do not use wheat, and they are doing just fine, so maybe switching over to other grains might be the best kind of protest. :)
     
  4. CraigMackintosh

    CraigMackintosh *****

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    Just a brief comment to respond to confusion over 'large scale'.

    I should clarify my thoughts on this - and I shouldn't have used the words 'large scale'. Permaculture can and should be applied 'large scale', in the sense that we need it practised all over the world. Where I differentiate permaculture systems and 'large scale' agribusiness, is that sustainable agricultural systems necessitate having more people on the land. We cannot persevere with the 1-man-farming-500-acres approach. We need most people involved in producing food for at least some of their needs.

    The 'efficiency' of agribusiness is not in how much production you get from a given area (in this they lose hands down - see: https://permaculture.org.au/2009/02/14/an-interview-with-jules-dervaes/), but in how big an area can be farmed by one man.

    Permaculture/sustainable systems require diversity - and the more diverse the array of plants and other elements, the more productive, and healthy, it is:

    https://permaculture.org.au/2008/09/23/biodiverse-systems-are-more-productive/

    You cannot have diverse arrays of plants in an agribusiness 'system', as their systems are based on mechanisation/automation of planting, weeding, spraying, harvesting and processing.

    To avoid 'pest' problems, you cannot plant monocrop (https://permaculture.org.au/2008/08/12/which-came-first-pests-or-pesticides/). To avoid 'weed' issues, you cannot plant monocrop. To avoid bad bacteria/fungal problems, you cannot plant monocrop. So, to avoid chemical based systems, you cannot plant monocrop.

    Agribusiness 'systems' require monocrops. You cannot use a machine to automate harvesting on non-monocrop fields.

    I haven't even spoken about peak oil and the implications for agriculture - which are immense. Farm machinery, pesticides/herbicides, refrigeration, transport, distribution, etc. Agribusiness systems are impossible for biological reasons, and they're impossible for resource reasons.

    In addition, heavy farm equipment damage the land (compaction).
     
  5. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    "but in how big an area can be farmed by one man."

    I beg your pardon, but as a farmer of five acres, hopefully it's about how big an area can be farmed by one person. :)
     
  6. CraigMackintosh

    CraigMackintosh *****

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    :blush::)

    Oops. Can I say that my use of the word 'man' was as in 'mankind' (all inclusive)? :think:
     
  7. paradisi

    paradisi Junior Member

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    the bill gates foundation has decided to invest in monsanto shares - as windows user that funds the bill gates foundation you should express your contempt

    google will find the foudnation and they have a contact us - tell them what you think about their latest share purchases
     
  8. CraigMackintosh

    CraigMackintosh *****

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    See this: https://permaculture.org.au/2008/11/23/philanthropy-gates-style/
     
  9. Fernando Pessoa

    Fernando Pessoa Junior Member

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    I express my contempt at myself daily,no matter what good I do in the world through my actions I undoubtably cause harm.
    Last year I gave away about 5% of my wealth and did about 500 hours community or aid work.I drive,I shop,I consume,I drink,I smoke etc etc etc .
    .
    I think the target of peoples contempt should be those that have done nothing to add to the quality of life of those less fortunate,if you really need to express contempt..
    I just think all of this negativity about major corporations and super wealthy people is a little bit of a joke when we all happily use the system to enjoy a stable life,ergo we support the system.
    I will be highly controversial here and throw out that, I think Ghandi was the cause of great suffering because it was his efforts that caused the partition and left us with the shattered subcontinent of India.You see it's very easy to look at the negative.
    What about Nelson Mandella leader of a terrorist organisation married to and in cohoots with a know terrorist Winnie Mandella,he has caused some major problems in South Africa,they have left South Africa with some huge problems..
    The Dalia Lama has made so many errors when dealing with the Tibet situation,that he has cause plenty of suffering for those people.
    See it's easy,to concentrate on the negative..
    Whats hard is making the problem a solution because it requires more than just talk or protest,it really requires personal action.
    I find it hard to believe that with all the money Gates and Buffet are throwing around that some of it hasn't achieved some good.
    Rather than supporting that we go at them like rabbid dogs frothing at the mouth pointing out just how bad they are for attempting to change,and what mistakes they have made.
    The time for blame has gone,it's really down to looking at ourselves as individuals and seeing what we can do that is really positive really forward,because we are the ones who put the carbon in the air ,we are the ones that support the system,we are the one who are in the greatest benifit from this plunder.Those that have lost the most and who will lose the most from the coming climate catastrophe are not represented on this forum because they don't have the means to connect.
    Every time I attend a Permaculture gathering or environmental meeting and this big business bashing comes up.The rest of the time is hijacked pissing and moaning about how evil it is.
    When the room full of human resources could have been better focused on delivering some positive change somewhere else.It really is high time Permacultralists just stuck to the implementation of the design science and not get caught up in the negative.We have other watchdog organisations out there for that.
    Best Wishes
    Fernando
     
  10. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Yep.
    good point on the big business bashing easy to do doesnt solve much tho.

    However.
    Australia Is the origins/home of Permaculture.
    Monsanto Is trying to get their product into this country and see Organic movements like said Permaculture as a basic stumbling block that needs to be lessened in the eyes of 'the educated public'.
    Solution.
    Stop defending Permaculture.
    Stop saying 'ok it can never compete in large scale terms.(it wasnt actually designed to do that) and to be honest the only reason it hasnt been done large scale is probably cos nobody has done it yet cos everybody is saying it cant be done... shoot yourself in the foot.
    instead recognise that the monsanto finger pointing is just that.
    therefore the solution is to redirect the attention of the'educate public' to the documented evidence available as to why such a company should never be allowed to unleash its product and the documented evidence of what has happened to other countries/farmers/fragile environments etc...when they have been allowed to promote and distribute their products..

    Put the attention back onto what it belongs to Monsanto where it will have the most effect.
    Screaming blue murder wont work.
    Cold hard facts presented in the right way in the right place will/should.
    Time for shoulder to shoulder with all walks of the organic movement.

    If htey get into Aus it wont be long before they bulldoze their way into NZ too.
     
  11. Fernando Pessoa

    Fernando Pessoa Junior Member

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    They are here they are here in a big way.They are every where and in a big way.We are the system that supports them.Everyone on this forum has 1 degree of separation from Monsanto,something you eat,something ,you plant,something you buy will always be connected to them.Fighting the corporation is like throwing stones at a tank.Putting a small scale localized food system in that is high yield low input is the most direct way to combat that.The place to start is on your own lawn.Any other action that diverts from that is wasted.Once your system is up give someone else a leg up.It's not rocket science,I don't see a chapter in the Manual devoted to protest and whinging,I have never been to a P.C teaching facility that offered a 3 day workshop in sulking and stamping and you got a placard to wave at the end.This big bus bashing is like shooting a fish in a barrel.
    Best Wishes Fernando.
     
  12. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    Weren't they considering legal action against the Aust government for our plan to label all gm foods - something about it being "descriminatory" (ie. Australians would be able to descriminate gm from non gm foods and make a choice - i thought that was the purpose of labels).

    When they try to dictate to us what our laws should be then i think some bashing is good therapy.
     
  13. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Compared to traditional agriculture, what would be considered large scale in Permaculture?

    Large scale in my mind would be 100 acres divided between 40 to 50 families creating a sustainable community. Is that stinkin thinkin ?
     
  14. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Ummm.
    Large scale would be pretty much what you or I would do in our backyard, using the ethics and principles to achieve our goals without causing anymore harm than has already been done.
    Unfortuanately while I have spent alot of time as a child and teenager on farms dairy sheep and cattle and milk goat, I am not a farmer and do not have the farmer point of view.

    Alot of emphasis is placed on moving the food to the people which IS all very well and good but the reality is that if all large farms just stopped producing food (not that this would happen), the people would not be able to feed themselves; therefore rather than ostrasize the large scale farmer who may just happen to accidentally hit this site and wonder whether it had anything to offer his business, perhaps we should look at comments that direct said farmer businessman to relook at what they are actually achieving with overloading the soils with chemicals and how could they possibly start to turn this around.

    I have heard and unfortuantely cant remember where, that you cannot take a (eg) dairy farm and just stop using the chemicals on the livestock, they drop like flies probably due to impaired immune systems and that there has to be a gradual reduction in both livestock management and soil management.
     
  15. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Forgot to reply, 100 acres used to be considered an average sized Waikato dairy farm, they are alot larger than this now and do Not support a whole family.

    Have we forgotten that the reason Permaculture was set up in the first place was in reaction to the distructive practises and chemicals that were being used and still are.....In the Agricultural Community.

    The purpose of changing the heart of farming to a environmentally sound soil and livestock management has not been met and the fault for that does not neccessarily lie just with the farmer.

    You/We also share that responsibility in the fact that we have not achieved a set goal.
    No ifs but or maybe's that a fact.
    30 years or so thats not really good enough, come on.
     
  16. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    More from the article Craig posted
    https://www.infowars.com/gates-foundation-invests-in-monsanto/
    [​IMG]
    https://rawlivingfoods.typepad.com/1/political_issues/

    [​IMG]
    Isn't the MD of Google great mates with the MD of Monsanto?
     
  17. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Old men is suits?
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    With Goggle and Monsanto looking after us all we can relax
    [video=youtube;I9I1IkbcHNE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9I1IkbcHNE[/video]
     
  18. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    So a single street of permaculturalists could be considered a "large scale" with individually cared for parcels...

    ... you start in your backyard mischief i'll start in mine... ;)
     
  19. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    We need people to throw stones at the tanks though. If there weren't activists opposing wrongs then the powers of evil would be much stronger than they are. Throwing stones at the tank doesn't stop the army. It occupies them while you can organise the resistance to grow their own food ;-)


    I think the comparison with Gandhi et al is inaccurate. While they may have caused some problems, those problems have to be weighed against the good that they did. But what good have Monsanto done?

    Where I live there are people, many many people, who believe that roundup is completely benign. It only kills the plants it is applied to, and then it breaks down completely and has no adverse effects. The reason that people believe this is because Monsanto had a very smart campaign to educate people about their product. Sure I can take a positive approach - oh you don't need to use that herbicide, you can mulch or use chicken tractors or whatever. But why would they bother doing that when they already have a perfectly useful and benign tool for weed control. And yes, I know the answer to that, but do you get my point? You have to say something negative about glyphosates so that people realise there actually is a problem.

    I'm not willing to wait for everyone to make the philosophical shift to Pc, Natural Sequence Farming etc. Things need to be said now. And there's no reason why we can't challenge as well as build.
     
  20. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Well said pebble...
     

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