MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY and Permaculture

Well, the best way to do anything is to research it. Find out who is teaching near you, and what they are teaching. It seems that more and more, a PDC follows a standardized curriculum. We have hosted two courses here with three treachers, all of whom had different teaching styles, etc, but all of whom were very well informed, excellent teachers, and who had many years of experience.

And, as DJ suggests, getting the Designers Manual would be an excellent first step.

 

Oh, and, ,my understanding is that most certificate courses are taguth by people who are certified by PRI, which provides us with this site.

I said this many times before we hosted a PDC, but the money I spent on a permaculture design course was the best spent money I have ever spent. I was drowned in information. It has been useful to me on a daily basis, and was paradigm shifting while being also "of course!"

 

Self sustainability is one area I thought a majority of people would get along. Money once again rears its ugly head. Fight all you like over the dollar, I live as much as I can without it.

I think we're missing the point...................................................... :?

A bank balance after death is handy, just look at Kerry Packers mansion in the after life.

I'm brand new and only here to get ideas on how to live life peacefully. I'm greatful what I was taught was free.

Permiculture is a profitable business, now the world has recognised global warming.

 

The world has to survive if we are to make more money. :evil:

Greed and money is killing the world and the poor are practising permiculture as a means of survival. Costing courses beyond the means of the lower incomes, is not the solution.

My 2c

 

Isn't money just a resource? Shouldn't we be using money now to set up systems for the future, just like we should be using remaining oil supplies to set up systems for a post carbon future. Can't we use money within the structure of permaculture ethics and principles without it being evil?

If we do this with permaculture ethics in mind - how can that be wrong.

I see money as a means to an end. I'm setting up a business that will support a free community education centre - I can't keep the centre open if I just keep volunteering and I don't want to be reliant on government handouts to keep it open either.

Instead I can earn good money educating those who can afford to pay good money, so there will be enough for me and my family (we grow most of our own food and live in a very small house so we don't need much) and the excess is returned into the community in free education, information etc - just like the fair share ethic.

There is a place for all of this - free courses for people, paid courses for those who can pay and courses for those people who not only have a LOT of money (the Al Gores and Oprahs) but also have a LOT of influence and now is the time to be influencing the influencers (hope I haven't gone too Donald Rumsfield here!)

Sonya

 

When the pyramid crumbles

Suppose, in post-peak times, no one can afford to pay for the education.

Will you be able to feed your family? If not, it is not sustainable.

 

Re: Donations of large funds

The cardinal question in tis context is how do we get millions or even billions, which we can spend in an ethical way, without being unethical?

Any ideas?

 

The problem is we're only spending a minute proportion on retifying the damage we're creating.

The moneys not going to the poor, it's going to line the fat pockets of the rich. Building that extra house to rent out to the families that can't afford it, so they can build the extra wing on the mansion or buy that over priced car.

Refuse the billions of dollars that we are earning from harvesting the earth and destroying the environment. ABSOLUTELY.

David Suzuki once said permiculturist will one day be the most important people on earth. His reasoning is the lifestyle and sustainability, not the bank accounts.

If you think money is the solution and not the problem, permiculture will do little to change the worlds environment.

Even on a peaceful lifestyle website, money and greed creates problems.

$20 000 a course to teach people to change their lifestyle is crazy and looks a means of profiting from from a dangerous situation. Maybe the government should look at a subsity, if a course costs that much to produce. More than one tax payer would consider this a good return on their taxes.

I keep hearing permicultures the answer, so why put it within the reach of only a select few? Are we saving the world or profiting from the experience.

Bill Mollison created a modern spin on what Indigenous people have practiced for millions of years. I thank and praise him for that. If it is a reason for wealth and not survival, then we have all missed the point.

There's 5 cents worth, only my opinion. It's not mean't to offend anyone. I'm not interested in conflict only projecting a point of view.

 

Thank you for that. This is valid point you make here!

btw. the 20.000 PDC is not realistic anyway. There are not many who would be able to pay that sort of money and are interested in a Permaculture Design Certificate.

The target group able to pay 20,000 would not do a PDC but would hire a permaculture designer as a consultant and pay the consultant that sort of money. (s.a. Geoff Lawtons $30,000,000 project in one of the first postings of this thread)

 

I know money is a very emotional subject. Please be assured the following is not meant to be abusive or should not be misinterpreted as an attack. I really would appreciate if you would find time to address my concerns.

Did I understand that right?

If someone visits you, you charge $20?

A volunteer works for you on your farm for more than 12 hours a day for free and you charge them 10$ for food per day?

People actually pay you that you allow them to work for you?

I don't think this was meant to be the answer to my earlier question:

And could you please explain how you meant the first post in this thread? It seems a bit contradicting if you compare it with your last one, or at least a bit confusing. Would you clarify this please?

 

This thread seems to be getting bogged down with "money", let's face it people, everything costs! If you got it for free, someone else somewhere had to pay for it one way or another; that's life. Money is just the bottom line medium of exchange, you can't pay your rates and taxes in carrots (unfortunately).

 

Re: Explaining

I try to figure out, how this theoretical structure works in realty. I believe more people should copy your approach. I think you are a great role model. Would you please show us how you realise all of that in realty? Please allow me to ask you some questions. They are not meant inquisitorial, more to help us understand the invisible structures behind yourself so we can copy them.

Transparancy is a major criteria for Australian charities. The annual reports are disclosed and publicly available on the ASIC website. ( https://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/g ... &srchsrc=1 ) So there is no secret behind all of that anyway.

Is there much surplus if you charge a volunteer $70 per week (=$10) and each visitor $20?

Unfortunately there is nothing on the project site of your website. The only information I could find on your website was a detailed report on the "Greening the desert" project in Jordan. It was not clear who financed the project. Johud, Nicco or PRI? According the ASCI records it looks like PRI did not donate any money to this particular Jordan project. Did you get paid to do a consultancy for Johod or Nicco? Could you please explain, using this project as an example how all of this fits together?

What about the project you started in Tanzania? Did PRI start it? Did PRI donate any money to it? Or did you get paid to do a PDC there? Who paid for your expenses? What projects did PRI finance in the past and how?

Please don't take my questions wrong, I just try to figure out ho all of that works in the real world.

According the official ASIC website it looks like PRI is not a registered charity. It is a tax exempt company limited by guarantee.

So please could you explain in detail how that works?

Thank you for that offer. But you see me a bit confused. Are you aware that most of the structured outlined in the above section are now illegal in most European countries and the USA? Even Australia has changed the law two years ago to make nearly impossible to achieve this. The manual was written 1988. The corperate law changed a lot in the last 19 years.

However, you obviously have achieved the impossible. I'm not surprised. You made the desert green, nothing can stop you

Could you please explain how this works in your case? Do you have another structure in place for your consultancies?

Thank you so much for your time and effort to explain all of this to us.

 

Good grief, Leuchtturm...

Geoff and Nadia do one hell of a good job. Permaculture is their life and they are very generous with their time and knowledge. If they can make money from it, good luck to them. They have certainly put in the work.

The reality of the world we live in is that we all need money to do things. It's just another form of energy. Yes, the most easily traded version. (Think LETS systems!)

I fail to see why they should be answerable to you, however politely you phrase your questions.

I'm not out to make an enemy of anybody, but I feel the discussion as it is at the moment is becoming a "negative energy heatsink", that can only serve to distract Geoff and Nadia from what they need to be focusing on.

Cheers,
Davo

 

Excuse me? Every Australian charity is answerable to the public. That's the law. That's the reason The Permaculture Research Institute should be audited every year.

Or do you think we should follow Geoff Lawton blindly and believe everything he says without asking questions? Btw Geoff Lawton himself does not want others to do that. Permaculture is not a fundamentalistic religion where you are not allowed to question the dogma.

Geoff says this all the time and he even offered to explain everything, we do not understand after referring to chapter 14 of the manual. He did this 3 posts ago. I took his offer and asked some questions. It may not be of importance to you but it may be of importance for others.

Davo, nothing I asked is a secret, everything is available for public viewing. But reading the ASIC documents raised more questions than answers.

Geoff Lawton is my role model! I want to copy his invisible structures. Therefore I want to know, how he did it! I want to know how his invisible structures are set up to copy them! Do you really think it is the permaculture way to reinvent the wheel again?

I do not believe this discussion is becoming a negative heat-sink. Quite contrary, its becoming very productive. Don't you think Geoff wanted to wake us up with the very first posting in this thread? He posted a very provocative statement and started an interesting discussion.