MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY and Permaculture

Jeff, if a movement can't engage in self criticism it is getting dangerously like a cult.
I could give you my CV for what its worth, but that isn't exactly the point. My criticism of Geoff's work comes from this awful sinking feeling (based on my own hard work at one of Geoff's projects) that not long after a lot of sites have been developed to his specs the people who live on them look at the swales with weeds growing on it and scratch their heads and go back to whatever they were doing.
I would love to be proven wrong. I would love to see follow up photo's of Permaculture paradises wherever Geoff has been, 5 years, 10 years, 15 years later.
Permaculture is supposed to be about designing landscapes to be productive for the people who live in them. So, you've got to live in them. You can't just flit in and out. A nomadic Permaculturist is in my mind an utter paradox.
I don't doubt that Geoff is one of the most hard working, inspired and inspiring individuals on the planet. I have worked with the man, and he is a large part of the reason I am doing what I am doing the way I am doing it today.
I think if he put his energy into one farm he might produce a really impressive research site that would give his message a lot more substance. I wish him and Nadia all the best at the Channon. I hope he creates the moment in history that turns the beast around.
You can go on about the urgent hurry that we're in to heal the world, but friends, the ends do not justify the means. The more hurried you go, the farther behind you get...

 

Unfortunately it's not just a matter of being up for the challenge Jeff.

It's a matter of being able to afford to be up for the challenge - with all the good intentions, willingness and capability in the world, a lot of people can't afford to be without any form of income volunteering in order to become a Permaculture professional the way Geoff suggests.

If that was different, then I'd expect there'd be a lot more people willing to make the sacrifice. If the word was spread among PI approved teachers to let their past and present students know of the opportunities Geoff says are out there, then surely that would lead to more people looking to become Permaculture professionals and help both Geoff and Permaculture?

That's all I'm trying to do...identify what I see as a failure of communication in letting interested and/or qualified people know of opportunities, and point out that very few people can afford to work as a volunteer...in the hope that these might be seen as valid points which can perhaps be addressed in the future as Geoff or others see fit.

I'm not trying to get at Geoff or be critical in any way and I'm very disappointed that others have attacked him personally - I agree that it reflects poorly on us as a community and Geoff is the last person who deserves to be attacked. IMO, expressing opinions and disagreeing is good, but being abusive to someone giving their best and who is always positive in outlook, is a pretty horrible way to act.

I'm thankful to Geoff for all the great info on his projects and this site where I can give a bit of time and hopefully help some people now and again. I respect his work, how much of himself he puts into it, and his talent as a designer and teacher.

I don't know if somehow what I had to say has got lumped in with the overt critics and abusive people, but I was actually trying really hard to avoid coming across that way, while pointing out my perspective and making a couple of suggestions which I hoped were helpful.

 

I've been thinking about this overnight. Perhaps I am being egocentric but can't help but wonder if this refers to me.
I do hope that you responded to the private message by imploring the member to speak up!
To me the idea of a community or a movement where everyone feels the same about everything or where everyone outwardly agrees with one another for fear of offending or appearing disunited, or shabby, is terrifying. I'd rather spend my entire life shitfighting than spend the whole thing in respectful, united silence.
Imagine if Bill Mollison had have just shut up in the interest of being a good, respectable Tasmanian.
Gimme a break.

 

this seems in contradiction to what you have said previously and I notice you ignored my previous post

so we are a couple of Pensioners trying to survive on 3.5 ha of sandy barren soil ........ it is literally survival because I can only eat pesticide free food and we cant afford to buy it

I am almost totally disabled hubby does everything including look after me so not much use talking to us about voluntering because he doesnt have time to do everything here

I read here trying to earn more about how to grow food but doing a permaculture course is way out of our reach - even if we could afford the fee then there is the cost of travel ......... plus we cant be away from our garden or animals here more than a few hours

I dont know you or what you have done but the title of the post says it all and nothing I have read here has changed that

your statement I quoted infers that there is help for "battlers" to get into permacultue but I have never seen any indication of any such thing here in WA ..........

the only help I find is from the people here on the forum - which is good and I thank you for making the forum available

but I find it frustrating that whereas permaculture seems available to help poor people all over the world here in australia it doesnt seem available to the poor and disadvantaged in any practical way ( as the quote infered )


respectfully
frosty

 

Hi Geoff and Nadia..You too frosty....

I need help with Permaculture to Geoff..I too am on a pension..Have been learning Permaculture since the very late 80s....

Im self taught because i too cant afford even a much cheaper price of a design course... most recent quote was/is approx $500.even so low can mean so high.thats if a teacher can be found,then a vacancy on the course,
at a location that is adjacent for the said period of such classes....

Ill tell you thered probly be far more "Permies" if we could afford to be a permie.. :lol: .

I like most others out there/here are probly self taught but are left in charge of dispencing "permie" at our own level of knowledge of "permie ways"

Gee if its as simple as that I could advertise myself as a "permie Consultant" but without qualifications is that allowed, if so can i do it from my backgarden??I got nearly 20 exp at this sorta thing now not every subject i know but..Id call myself "permie Qualified"

Apparently to partake in a "design course you must of done the "intro to Permaculture" course.....Thats another $500 before the extra $500 for the design course before,I could call myself a "Permie"...

Is there anyway a 20 yr vetren of "Permie stuff" can get a licence to teach.. I too will volounter ANYWHERES....

My main area of living is best described as "Rural Suburbia" all the perks of suburbia but rural lifestyle.I live on less then a 1/4 acre suburban block.

Unfortunatly i havent found a benificial money donor to keep me happy..
but im hoping 8)

Id also like to appologise for any nastieness over previous posts.How i type copmes out differently from how it comes accross

As some one else accused certain posters for using nicknames and "heaven forbid if we didnt use our real names"

Well Mines Terence Haven ...Whats yours?

Unfortunatly its hard to be permie over night let alone teach it..some consideration must be given to value for skills/knowledge.....

If able to use "permaculture" in any of my adverts I would consider no charge for knowledge exchange..eg "whats this thing called?"

and for picking my brain over hours or days,etc would be charged in accordance ...Id love to offer one on one tuition,its far more personal and all work or teaching can be condenced to run over shorter course times..

shorter times = shorter costs....

The reason "permaculture" isnt what it should be, is the price.......

Funny how we learn to save on costs,but it costs us a fortune to learn about saving money..... call me slow blame too mny cones but to me it doesnt add up...

Permaculture should be free or "as close as"

Its a hard one for us all but as frosty says"we are not all rich".

This planet is stuffed.lets not all jump on this "Money and more of it, at all costs syndrown".

As someone said most of the permies she knows are rich people with a concience.......Well there are "poor people with a concience and poor people who do this naturally..I cant beleive that as a totally single minded Permie,greenie,enviouromentalist,come commie hippy, that im here arguing with some very knowledgable person and fighting over money and its lack or overabundance of it.........

Im so ashamed, i havent even dared tell my long suffering non permie.
wife..For gods dont make me have to tell her this.......

Yours as nicely and well typed as i could...

Terry Haven Broomehill

 

thanks geoff

I will let you settle in back home we have been battling here for so long that we can wait a bit longer without interupting you teaching your course over there !

I will send you an email detailing more about our land and problems with it, plus my contact details plus maybe some photos .......

your offer to help is much appreciated

regards
frosty (Anne )

 

Thankyou very much Geoff and Nadia


Id love to take you up on your offer (you made my year)..

I too like frosty will contact you at your email address at another time to disscuss further a suitable time.

Tezza


edited to ask how i got the adverts on my page?????????

edited again to let you know Geoff or anyone else that i too post pics on this website..i been having probs posting but check em out Under "Terence"

 

I feel like coming back to Australia just to give you a big hug, Geoff. :wink:

 

I come here less often these days because I am so wrapped up in my Aquaponics at present - but still drop by semi-regularly.

I read through each post in this topic tonight and had to smile at there being a happy ending . Tezza and Frosty, make the most of the fantastic offers, as I am sure you will .

 

Hi Geoff and Nadia,

I like what you have said here, both on making money and on the offers of assistence to both Frosty and Tezza, two worthy recipients of any kindness. I'm a seppo living in Central America, but I know when an "onya" is appropriate.

We are hosting a PDC right now, with 21 students, 17 of whom are paying, 4 of those are paid for by a grant, three of the 21 are on complete scholarships that we provide, and one on a half scholarship donated by a participant of a previous course here. We gave two other scolarships out to Ministry of Agriculrture (they have 4 paying participants), but they could not get two weeks off. Last year we had 18 students, 7 of whom had grants cover their tuition and another 2 we gave scholarships to.

The teachers at the PDC we are hosting right now, Toby Hemenway and Larry Santoyo, have come here to teach, and they are great. They have a good lesson plan, touching on issues and design considerations based on their extensive experiences. It costs money for them to come, and they deserve to be remunerated for their time and expertise. Because they support what we are doing, they have allowed us leeway to give scholarships to one deserving farmer and an extension officer and manager of another small NGO we admire and sometimes work with.

Larry and Toby will make some money, MMRF will make some money, our staff members will get another few months of work (we are looking for funding after our grant runs dry) and all of our students will learn more in this two weeks than perhaps any other two weeks in their lives.

Even though only three people could take advantage of it, 5 people were given scholarships, which was ONLY possible because of the tuitions paid by the paying participants.

Anyway, if you ever happen to be in Belize, Geoff, you have a place to stay for a while (and if you have time!). Want to do a course here some day?

Best wishes,

Christopher

 

G'day,

Good Onya Chris - so glad to hear that you got some reasonable numbers at your PDC....Let's hope that it leads to some new and very well deserved funding....

Ciao,

Darren Doherty

 

Hi Darren,

Thanks! Where are you now in your perambulations?

C

 

hey chris how are ya....Great about your courses...If your courses are held in your normal light hearted/minded etc etc Im sure it would be a joy and a lot of fun....

It gets a bit too Serious in here somedays


Tezza

 

oohh. serious with a capital S? that is serious. :lol:

 

Tezza, the whole world gets a bit serious some days, these days. That's why funny buggas like you are so bloody necessary!