MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY and Permaculture

Wow,

Geoff............. we love you.

Can you tell us how start our own jet based pyramid plan?]

I really wanna visit those 3rd world countries on a budget.... just a lil business class budget..

Reply paid............

floot


PS... Geoff......... please dont do this on a forum of friends.... naysayers are our stock in trade, please dont indulge them.....

 

Totally agree with your sentiments Geoff. We do have to get over our poverty mentality. It's so rife with so many of us that live below, around and beyond that 'poverty' line some economist came up with. My poverty line is a full years wage for some on this planet. I'm on a mission to teach that we can survive with our productive front and backyards, reclaiming the common land for food and turning those disused tennis courts to something a bit more practical. I believe that permaculture is part of the solution and look forward to working with so many as you do. Keep up the good work. Earth care and sharing the wealth is the way to go.
Proud to be a lefty-pinko-greeny-permie kind of woman in this day and age.

Kathleen

 

What do you mean by that Geoff? That students pay $20K to do a PDC?

If that's the case, then IMO it would be very productive for you to suggest (and advertise) ways and means for how interested people can pursue this career path. I would suggest that a fair number of people who have a PDC don't get presented with any sort of clear career options or paths as a Permaculture consultant at the end of their course.

I know I certainly didn't...beyond being told that 'making a living practising Permaculture is something you have to build up yourself'...and that having your details recorded at the PI in Tyalgum is highly unlikely to gain you any actual opportunities. Nor apparently does being thought of as highly capable by your teacher - apparently if you don't have the right teacher (icluding those endorsed by the PI) you don't get to find out about opportunities.

If even partly qualified (completed a PDC) people don't know about all these "thousands of positions to fill" then it would seem to me there's a major failure of communication going on.

On the front page of the site there is a couple of very rare advertisements which don't look much like job opportunities...unless that's what "If you are interested in helping" is supposed to mean? I take that to be no different from the other advertisements which state that if you spend a couple of thousand dollars on airfare they'll feed you - and even those opportunities are pretty rare.

Every day more people who are relatively or completely new to Permaculture check out the site and the forum; you have to wonder how many of these have no idea whatsoever that there is a large shortage of people wanting to get into Permaculture as a profession, when even people who do have a PDC have no idea that there is a shortage?

Maybe you would fill a number of those "thousands of positions" if you made some effort to get the message across that these opportunities existed?

Good luck with your latest project and all your endeavours.

 

The jetset culture is going to save us all? oh, okay... :lol:

We all love you too, Geoff. That's the main reason we would bother to criticise.

I have to raise this criticism, Geoff. What the hell are you doing flying business class?!

How much could you have saved and returned to projects in the middle east if you had flown economy class? You'd have made it there in the same amount of time, and been responsible for less CO2 in the atmosphere. Its a really thin edge of the wedge when you can start to justify shit like that. YOu're really at the coalface aren't you, in that business lounge checking emails...

I am deeply skeptical that a "Permanent Culture" based on free markets is possible. Free markets is just another way of saying competition, another way of saying, the rights and interests of the individual trump those of the community, of the whole.

I think an honest, objective rereading of the ethical objectives of Permaculture would be useful at this point.

One fully functional mature Permaculture farm/community/bioregion anywhere on the planet, (which could be promoted via the internet with almost zero carbon emmissions) would be worth so much more than 20, 000 pdc's. Without the real world demonstration of the design princples, the PDC and all the consultations in the world is just so much hot air.

"the farther one travels, the less one really knows"
Lao Tzu, via George Harrison

 

iirc - emirates business class is mega-cheap.

it's economy and a half, but with business class seating, and comes with a lounge that has internet.

just no alcohol. :shock:

 

Well, that's alright then. I had images of Geoff kicking back with oil magnates, smoking cigars and so on...
(Geoff doesn't drink alcohol anyway, so he wouldn't be too worried...)

 

$20k for a permie course sounds like it's all heading in the right direction, yep.

i can see it now..

 

G'day,

Hear Hear Geoff & Nadia!!!....I believe that the quote is

.

In many cases NGO's all over the world travel there and that , live outside of the communities that they are working with, consuming a lot along the way. Geoff & Nadia, like many of us in Permaculture, follow the practice of living amongst the communities and fully engaging with them, therefore multiplying the effect of the relationships on each other and the systems that are laid out.

Its important work that Geoff and Nadia do in entering into some of the world's most difficult environments, enthusing and educating the locals in Permaculture & helping people become gardeners. What more could you do that is better and these guys are extremely effective....A flick thru their portfolio of work throughout the photo gallery will only support the quality outcomes they achieve.

Further, typically the articles of a Permaculture Institute trust state that its all about Care of the Earth, Care of the People and Return of Surplus...enough said.

That PRI is engaging in such projects as they are currently is a part of the whole Permaculture picture. All of us doing our individual bits, all of great significance where the effort and impetus continues as almost a "lifeblood", the sum of these parts all doing something....

all we can do is more....and tell everyone something they could do too....

 

Well, I wonder what I'm supposed to assume from your lack of response Geoff?...

a) You didn't see or read all of my previous post?

b) You don't really see any problem with having a dire shortage of Permaculture professionals - and this being at least partly (if not largely) due to a lack of letting people know these opportunities exist?

c) The statement about there being "thousands of positions to fill" doesn't actually reflect reality - it was a rhetorical device? Hyperbole?

d) These opportunities only exist for people who do a PDC with you or other select teachers (with nobody being made aware of this distinction before they sign on to do a PI approved PDC)?


It'd be good if you could spare a few minutes to clarify the situation - I'm just trying to help you connect those "thousands of positions" with the many people who don't realise they exist.

If these positions exist, wouldn't it be sensible for Permaculture to advertise PDC's to potential (and existing) graduates as able to provide work for (apparently badly needed) Permaculture professionals?

If a person studies at TAFE or University, they are advised of the total range of their future career opportunities and how to pursue them. Why - if there are "thousands of positions to fill" - aren't Permaculture graduates and potential graduates being informed of existing opportunities...both before and after completing their PDC's?


FWIW, personally, I couldn't care less if you fly around the world 50 times a year and need to adopt "camouflage" to get what you see as valuable work done. You're the person in that situation and IMO, the only one who understands the ins and outs enough to make that judgement call.

You're hardly a loaded, thoughtless tourist or an earth destroying, thoughtless businessman.

 

I would love to see an audit of all the Permaculture projects that have gone on all over the world over the years. I am sure some of them have been successful, but I am concerned that many of them fall on their arses when the experts move on to the next PDC, consultancy etc...
Permaculture isn't a magic wand that heals people and landscape overnight... it is a long term project.

 

Well, if the design system isn't taken up by the people, why is that?

 

Now Ive Seen and Heard it all...

Money has infiltrated everyone now

I allways thought it would be the shitstirers whod stuff up The Permie board...

Little did i think that the boards originator would be the catylist for it ...

Hey geoff you may know a lot about greening the deserts .seems you know how to line your own pockets as well.I bet you got a great Pants Swales to guide it all into your fat wallets(surely youd need a few to cope with your doubling of fees.....

Maybe we could call you Geoff Turnbull.......


I dont mind spending 70 bucks for a tape from Jeff but $20,000 to listen to you ..

NO EFFING WAY

Tezza

 

it is sad that now it seems permaculture will only be for the million $ students while the pensioners and other other low income battlers can starve while those "in the know' jet arround the world :cry:

so where did I get the idea permaculture was also about social justice :? I guess I must have dreamed it ............

 

I think permaculture services should either be given in return for goods and other services or When charging money I think it should be at a rate that the idivdual can afford,maybe a % of their annual income? That way the multi-nationals get charged millions and the kids in the 3rd world ghettos etc. get charged next to nothing (by Australian standards).
How one actually 'returns/shares the surplus' obviously depends on the individual as it is up to them and them alone if they are going to practice what they preach.
I don't see how any of you can be dissin Geoff like this, his record speaks for itself, by the people he attracts and the truly inspiring work that he does.
If he's chosen to adopt the camoflage of the corporations and move in that world,that his perogative. he's going to open alot of doors for future budding designers, not too mention see alot more money and most importantly be able to make huge positive changes to the planet.
Some you babyboomers have maybe been thinking a bit small and have just been fiddling about in the backyard, getting fat on all that equity from the real estate boom.Geoff's out there making real change in the world,your just jelous because you think your over the hill.
I would like to add though that I hope Geoff would consider leaving a % of places occasionally on his PDC for lower income earners.
Good on yer Geoff and Nadia

 

Re: CV's

Thanks for clarifying that Geoff.

It would seem then, that becoming a Permaculture professional via the route you suggest means:

a) Not having a mortgage, rent to pay, kids to support or any other financial commitments while a person volunteers for however long "a while" is (or at the very least being single and cutting off all secure living arrangements and having somewhere to store your belongings for free).

b) Going in with no guarantee that one of the "thousands of positions" a person ends up with isn't further voluntary work. One would also assume that this volunteering involves paying all their own travelling expenses - as a number of projects seemingly expect?


I can't really think of any occupation/industry which demands its future employees work as volunteers and come up with all their own travelling expenses in order to get experience.

If there is significant funding now for a lot of projects and a shortage of people to work on them, why can't these people be taken on projects, given the relevant experience and paid a very basic trainee wage? Build it into all these multi-million dollar budgets - surely corporate moguls who supply these funds understand the need for training and ensuring a constant flow of new trainees for a growing industry?

You spoke above lamenting about Permaculture design being 'dragged through the poverty gutter'...yet apparently, the only avenue to becoming a Permaculture professional via your method is for interested individuals to be 'dragged through the poverty gutter' to get there.

The average person who is paying a mortgage, or trying to keep their head above water in a tight and very expensive rental market, or trying to raise children, cannot even consider volunteering as a way to get into becoming a paid Permaculture professional.

If the situation remains that way, I can't see how you will ever get a significant and growing number of Permaculture professionals to carry out the work which needs to be done - only young people with no ties and people with enough money to ride out a volunteer period could even consider it.

In that case, regardless of people's interest or willingness, you're going to be missing out on a large percentage of PDC graduates who are talented and passionate about Permaculture, but simply can't afford to become a Pemaculture professional without having at least a poorly paid trainee wage induction into becoming one.

FWIW, I think that's a wonderful idea.

 

I am quite honestly amazed that anyone has the audacity to take Geoff and Nadia to task. I agree with Geoff, come out of the woodwork, tell us who you really are and what you have done.
Permaculture has been a concept for about thirty years now. In that time too little has happened and too slowly.
I don’t think there are harder workers in the movement than Geoff and Nadia. If we humans are going to survive the disaster facing us we have to act urgently. If Geoff sees an opportunity to use millions of corporate dollars to address the situation why second guess him and especially why misinterpret his words? In the interests of diversity of approach why not watch with interest? Why not commend him and see if you can offer some support, not trip him up! I would much rather see that money in his hands than any government or multinational company.
So Geoff has said that he is going to need help and who’s up for the challenge. Put your CVs in but make sure you put your forum names on there as well. He did mention he needs people he can rely on. I’m not sure if publicly slagging him on his own forum counts as reliable.
There are many people checking this forum all the time. What is happening with Permaculture? Perhaps I can get involved. Look at the shabby image you are putting forward and please lift the game because the planet depends upon it.
I had a private message the other day from a member of this forum who feels too intimidated to say anything for fear of being jumped on by the heavies. Talk about terrorism! How does that constitute respectful behaviour?