Discussion in 'Buy, sell, trade, give away & exchange' started by permacultureplants, Nov 16, 2006.
As I said before, Chicka, I fully support you to do that. I can't support you to rip off Jeff and unca Bill, however much I wish that they would put their stuff out their for free or cost.
I think that if you are going to be so rude, mate, you should have the gumption to sign your real name to your posts. Who are you, Chicka?
I've just had some devastating news this morning regarding a close friend,
this issue is no longer significant to me so i've edited out my posts.
Sorry to hear.
It does take all sorts to make a world... :?
It'd be nice to have inherited enough wealth so you never have to worry about earning a living and could spend your life providing free services to one and all.
Of course, a person as fortunate as that, would have little cause to rant about $70 and determine to steal because of the cost.
If they did think they had cause, I hope they also direct their rage and tendency toward theft at nurseries, seed providers, ISP's, electricity and phone companies, food vendors, artists, and all other people in society who have the audacity to charge for a service.
I hope they also scorn the person/people they inherited their wealth from...as one would assume they actually worked to get that money...though 'scorn' would also include not accepting that inheritance.
They'd be a a classic double standard hypocrite otherwise.
Just to correct some idea that i hang on to others coat tails.Well thats certainly not something that can be accepted.....but i wont waste my breath...
My argument is i suppose ....Not the :"put it up for free attitude"....
Its the way its being gone about,after all Its part of two persons lives..Uncle bill who did all the talking.And Jeff who did the taping etc etc..
If a person insists on making it "free" without "permission" or at least an Acknoweldegment of the two persons invilved... Is this moraly ok?
I agree with the idea that Permaculture be offered free ...I Myself have offered services free of charge and certain products.I love doing that.
Everthing i try to do for the good of others..no charge..
Trouble with this way of doing buissnes...is profits are virtually non exsistant.... Hence our basic need to charge a fee to "cover costs incured"
Unless a person is 100% self suficient there will allways be that need for the old bit of cash......Heaven forbid a card controld lifestyle..
If we cant earn cash instead of say apples,how do we cover expences to cover us to enable us to take the time to answer peoples questions in here.
Erning our cashies, enables us to answer all these questions that you want for nothing.....Why are you doing this? Take away our incomes,
you take away our ability to keep it low..Why shouldnt people be able to earn an income.
Well Chickadee seems to have done a lot of crowing and then flown the coup.
Just to put a few things into perspective:
1. I consulted with Bill before taking Professional recording equipment to his course in Tasmania in 1983.
2. Bill gets royalties for each copy sold as per our agreement in 1983, something I have never veered from.
3. My investment in this process is thousands of dollars and thousands of hours. I never imagine it will pay it's way financially but it is nice to get a little back
4. I have another 50 hours or so of Mollison tapes to digitise but this can only happen after my tape decks are serviced. More dollars to invest. time is running out because magnetic tape loses quality as it sits in the Earths magnetic field.
5. To assume that I wouldn't put surplus into funding Permaculture is ridiculous.
6. Chickadee claimed that the $70 Australian was a weeks wages in some countries. Very true, in fact in rural Kenya where I have worked it is more like 3 weeks wages. So what! There is no way a peasant in rural Kenya or the rest of the poverty stricken world is going to log on to the internet and retrieve his bootlegs of my recordings. That's a privilege only middle-class dropouts have.
7. If the likes of Chickadee in middle-class Australia wants a copy he can get off his arse, put in a days labouring and buy a copy. If he chooses not to then its fine but a day invested in all that knowledge is nothing. If he can't be bothered then he probably wouldn't get round to listening to it either.
8. The reality of uploading 2.6Gb of data onto an internet site is daunting. Do the numbers for yourself. If you're at the end of twisted copper wires like me it's about 300 hours. I know because I did it. Ok you can reduce quality (something I tried to avoid because I hate poor quality sound) but that all takes time and software. Yes you can use freeware (Audacity is a very respectable freeware program) but you've still got to stop flapping your wings and crowing about it and actually do it, then the souls at the other end have to download it again and guess who can do it - not the 3rd world but the fat cats on broadband.
9. The set is subject to copyright and the Australian Government takes exception to breeches so you might spend the rest of your time looking over your shoulder wondering if......
10. Mollison always insisted that there was a built in pre-requisite to people doing a design course. They had to be resourceful enough that they could organise the money to do the course and also create the hole in their daily lives. I feel the same is true of the audio set. Why should anyone get it for free when it cost so much to produce? "The user must pay" - Bill Mollison
If I had the oportunity to purchase a set of recordings of Bill Mollison that I didn't already have I wouldn't be humming and hurring over Oz$70 for 47 hours. For Goodness Sakes start thinking like Permaculturalists not over-pampered children.
Go Jeff Go Jeff Do Jeff
If I had been lucky enough to go to the BM PDC 1983 and take my own proffesional recording equipment and have recorded it, I would of obviously wanted to edit it, and preserve it as well as try and get as many people to listen to it as possible.
Now we have digital technology and it is an awsome way for people to share information. If I had owned the old reel 2 reel tape recording I'm going to want to convert it to digital format for the same reasons.
All this I would have done myself with no thought of monetary gain in my mind, only preserving it in the best format possible and sharing it -getting the message out there, and it would'nt have taken me 24 YEARS!!
I would'nt be so un-permaculture like as to send it abroad, all the way to the good 'ol USA and make everyone have to buy it from there and get it shipped out here there and everywhere (airmiles people).
What I would have done is just simply advertised on a site like this one for people to either download it directly or buy it for minimal cost in CD form.
I reckon PermaculturePlants/Jeff could've pulled his finger out and got this information out there alot more efficiantly, cost effectively and timely.
I wonder what he did with the recording all those years...I would'nt be suprised if no one but Jeff listened to it as he asked for some stupid amount of money,just for listening, even to his friends and family.
And now he wants to recoup his losses just because his old recording device is obsolete, he's taking the piss.What took thousands of dollars and thousand of hours??!!I reckon he should have give that priceless infomation to someone who knew what they were doing.I would'nt be suprised if hardly anyone buys it, and no one gets to listen to it, because of Jeff's business acumin.
I mean its the digital revolution, information can be zoomed around the globe at the touch of the button, burned onto a CD and played anywhere -they do have CD's in the third world in some places.
Permaculture should not be held back by people looking to make money, the word should be spread as quickly as possible.
I think its one thing to charge people for a PDC (according to their income) but quite another to sell a recording of someones voice.
I can't believe this conversation is continuing and that Jeff is having to defend himself for doing such a sterling job for actually doing something that many people have over the years promised to do yet not delivered. Perhaps all this hype could be better served actually doing something of actual value.
The Mollison course I attended in 1995 was recorded - where is it? The 1995 Holmgren PDC was filmed - where is it? The 2005 Lawton:Mollison course was filmed - where is it? The 1983 Mollison course is out there now and its great. I've been driving to jobs, flying about, this past week doing up my old combine (ready for some dry sowing this autumn) listening away thinking "Yeah everyone should have this". Just like my combine I could have sent it out to a shop to get done up and paid perhaps less for the pleasure - but like Jeff I get a bit of enjoyment out of doing this stuff myself - just like people do up cars, grow their own food and kill their own meat...Might take a bit longer but at least we have it...
You now it really easy for people to take cheap shots, throw stones and make judgements about others. Time to stop complaining and take Bill's advice and embrace positivism.
Can we move on to perhaps discussing what the tapes contain for example....There is stuff in there that Bill didn't talk about on any of the courses I been on as a student or co-teacher. It must have been an excellent course - Would be great to get a recording of Geoff's or David's or the many other exceptional teachers out there. So much of our time doing menial work can be spent studying (except when the test cricket is on of course!).
By the way Geoff Lawton apparently has been listening to some of these recordings for years - according to the back cover of the DVD box.
Moving right along.......
Which is exactly what Jeff has done - using equipment which didn't come free, then spending more time and money later down the track converting to a more recent format (which is also much better in preserving it for all time.)
Where's the gain? Do you know how much a reel to reel cost in that era?
Yep, freight planes are leaving as we type...carrying nothing but loads of this DVD. Without that cargo, they could stay home and save all that jet fuel.
Then why do you charge for your services Permanut?
If you could afford to spend big money on recording equipment etc, then give the result away, surely you can give the services you're charging for away as well?
This thread has been turned into an absolute disgrace to the board. I'm mortified and very upset by the fact Jeff is being attacked over this in the worst possible way and has had to waste his valuable time responding to this crap.
NOBODY who teaches and writes about Permaculture as Jeff has and does is out to make significant money from doing so - they do it because they love and believe in it, want to share that with others, and believe that the way they're going about delivering the 'message' is the best way of doing it.
At the very least, that deserves the respect and right to not be publicly attacked by other Permaculturalists. :evil:
i believe jeff is to be commended for making *something* happen.. too few people are willing to get off their asses these days and take action.
but on the flipside, this is the free market economy and for everyone who thinks $70 is a bargain to get this information, there will be someone who thinks that the price is outrageous and will be happy to wait for the market to provide the information at a cheaper price (or wait for the info to be offered free).
it's my experience that people don't value things they get for free.
I commented to my wife yesterday that the nutters are coming out of the woodwork and as if on cue in comes permanut. Permanut does not know me or he wouldn’t be making such absurd claims. The man speaks but his lips are not moving. He is speaking from an orifice somewhat south of his mouth. To paraphrase some of his argument I think you should have got someone to write your argument who knew what they were doing.
I hate to shatter the romantic reel to reel illusion but I actually bought a state of the art (at the time) Sony Walkman Professional for a bargain price of $430. Let’s make no mistake that was a lot of money back then. The same year we had a half million gallon dam built for $500. Petrol was about 50 cents a gallon and Bill’s Permaculture Design course was $300. Airfares were around $600 return. A friend had just bought 50 acres of land for $30,000.
I used 40 X 90 minute tapes to record the lectures. Memorex pro tapes were about $15 each. I spent weeks in the city finding out the best way forward. Testing microphones was the final hurdle. I would plug in to the recorder in stores, record tests and take them home and review the sounds. Some were crap but a few shone through. I finally settled on an AKG D109 lapel microphone for $150 and an Audio Technics AT815 hand held shotgun microphone for outdoor use for another $180. I also decided that I needed a one-handed camera so I could simultaneously take photos. The photos on the cover of the DVD set were taken with an early 35mm automatic camera made by Ricoh for about $160.
When I got home with the recordings I listened to the entire set 5 times before attempting any editing.
All the time I was wondering what solution I would come up with to edit on to. After a week in the city reviewing other tape decks I came home with another Walkman Pro at the new price of $450. Believe it or not, there was a time when electronic gear got more expensive not cheaper. Two reasons for going the walkman pro for the second machine were quality and power consumption. Our entire household was coping on a single Solarex solar panel and the Walkmans used minimal power, so no generators were needed.
With the new combination I made a direct copy of the unedited masters for a fellow student who happily paid $300 for the set. That gave me a chance to perfect tape to tape with the two machines and an opportunity to listen to the set yet again. After months of editing and play back I finally made the edited set on to 30 X 90 minute Memorex master tapes. All were made using tape to tape with the 2 Walkman Pro’s.
The set was first advertised I think in 1984 in the Permaculture International Journal for $300. I know I spent more on advertising with them than I ever made from sales, but PIJ was a banner for Permaculture and I felt strongly about supporting it. I enjoyed walking into a mainstream newsagency and seeing the word Permaculture shining out. I didn’t sulk and dribble on about advertising in the journal should be free. The last set of tapes I sold in 1995 (or near then) to Geoff Lawton who also was a fellow student at the course in ’83.
In 1988 (or near then) I purchased a Sony CD burner ($550) in an external SCSI case ($120) with PCMCIA adapter ($180) to compliment my pentium 100 laptop, with the idea of creating a digitised audio set. It was so slow and laborious and required a second edit to fit onto the then 70 minute CDs, that I never pursued the process. Burning CDs in those days was at 1X speed that is it fully took 70 minutes to cook a 70 minute CD. The 30 tape set would have ended up a 40 CD set and would have been slower to produce than the tapes. What was worse was that the sound cards in those old laptops were not up to scratch so there was a loss of quality.
Last year I purchased a Neuros digital audio computer. (US$250 plus shipping) A kind of MP3/wav player/recorder wrapped around an 80Gb laptop hard disk. Just for something different, I went through the set again digitising them as I listened and occasionally removing the tape from the old case and putting it into a new case because the pressure pads on the masters had deteriorated and the resulting sound was dreadful.
Finally digitised in high quality wav format, I experimented with mp3 quality to try to reach a compromise between sound quality and file size. After much trial and error I finalised the conversion to MP3 and made the whole set available on 1 DVD, not 40 CDs as Permanut is advocating. How much would you be willing to pay for each of those CDs? US$40 is cheap. This is the way technology is going: MP3s not your tired old CDs.
I looked very carefully to try to find a manufacturer in Australia but there was nobody else that I could find on the entire planet who offered a comparable service. Given that US residents outnumber Australian residents then I reasoned there would probably be more purchases made in the US anyway (and besides air freight from the US is rediculously cheap). So far that has proven true, but Australians are much better at grizzling it seems.
I don’t believe the carry on from people who try to pose as Permaculturalists and who can’t overcome minor obstacles. I can’t afford it! It’s too expensive! Self-impoverishment at it’s extreme. Any worker would have got off their arse and raised the money. Any thinker would have ordered the DVD through their library system and got on with the learning curve. You know what, I’m glad you’re not getting a copy because I don’t think you would understand it anyway.
I agree with you Murray people don’t appreciate what they get for free. I asked a business consultant friend back in 83-4 what I should charge for a set. He asked what my goal was: for people to buy them or people to listen to them. If they’re cheap they won’t be heard; if they’re expensive they will be valued. I never charged the $600 that he suggested but I do believe that he was right.
There was a community group in Queensland who bought a set of the tapes to loan out to members. they wrote and asked my permission to make back up copies because cassette tapes are easily destroyed. I admired their honesty and resourcefulness and of course had no objection. Richard emailed me and asked how I felt about him making copies for his friends who could do with the education but would never make the effort to buy the set. My response was don’t just give it to them. Tease them with an hour or two and then make them put in the effort to get the next instalment. If they’re serious they’ll come back saying more please. If they don’t put in the effort they probably wouldn’t listen to more than an hour or two and certainly wouldn’t take the trouble to check out the notes.
I simply relate all of this story to put my perspective of the events. It was never expense that whole time for me, it was finding a solution and getting on with the job. The rewards to my own education have been enormous. Bill assures me I have the largest collection of Bill Mollison tapes on the planet and I still listen to them. Many others have also had the pleasure of doing so. Now it is available anywhere on the planet in a tiny package at an affordable price and in a form that archaelogists may well be able to decrypt.
As I have already stated, if anyone has any Mollison recordings that I don’t I will buy them at US$40 per 47 hours (the accompanying notes would be a bonus) and I would consider that I had found a bargain.
A wise man once said “By their fruits ye shall know them.” I have no idea who Freepermaculture, Chickadee and Permanut are. Quite often in forums like this the same stirrer takes on a few identities so it would not surprise me if this is the case. But lets see what exactly you guys have done for the greater good and (as the same wise man once said) “Judge not les you be judged.”
But its so much more romantic to imagine you in that earlier era with armloads of reel to reel tapes, packed in little tin cans... :lol:
Interesting to read the whole story though.
It is such a shame that the PIJ isn't around anymore. I suppose I should have bought a few more copies than I did instead of just reading other peoples copies!
Joel Malcolm used to post a lot here and has set up a backyard aquaponics website & service business and good luck to him too!!
This is off his site
Joel's info was often posted here and I seriously cannot remember anyone quibbling about cost or how those prices were established.
I have paid permies for plant material with no expectation of getting it free as they mostly wanted to recoup their cost of purchase, freight etc.
Lucky we still have free will - I could chose to pay or not to pay.
Personally, I feel the $70 is a bit steep. But on the flip side, I don't think it should be given away. I have considered buying it, but we are struggling to feed our livestock and set up our property (we bought 150 acres of hilly granite country covered in weeds). We also keep rare and heritage bloodlines of poultry, that will never pay for themselves, but if we got rid of them, they would be lost forever.
Had the price been closer to $30, it would be in a much more affordable zone. With a more reasonable price, you will probably find you would sell heaps more copies.
If times were better for us, I would love to be able to buy a copy. There are a lot of people around with spare cash, but we are not one of them. I will put it on my christmas list for next year. :lol: Half my pay goes into a paying off a loan we took out to buy land.
Permaculture is a great concept and people often make things available out of goodwill, and enjoyment of helping others in what they believe in stongly, but puting a big price tag on the mollison files does make me a feel little sad. Having to make a BIG profit margin is becoming a way of life, but in this case I feel it takes away from the success of the mollison taping.
I'm back after burying a friend just to let you know i haven't forgotten this issue, was prepared to move on but since i'm still being quoted and reading the latest dribble, i'll continue...
permacultureplants, your sad and sorry walkman story is pretty lame.
so you've been selling this audio since 1984?
not really sure as you writing makes for difficult reading with no paragraphs.
hope the audio has a few breaks in it so it's not just one continuos audio track and users can jump to the next track, or keep track of where there at, but i'm sure you've covered that.
$300 in 1984 was a lot, so do you still talk to your student friend?
basically he paid for your equipment in one go.
it sounds as though you've had lots of fun keeping up with the jones's with the different sound editing technologies over the past 24 years.
how could you complain that advertising was not free in the journal when you were stinging $300 a pop? as you say, you could of built a 500,000 gallon dam for an extra 2 hunj' and then you whinge about not recouping your advertising dollar! that's because exactly what you said of the value of $300 in 1984, you could buy a whole audio set up for that price, yet you charge that price for one set?
what did you expect? hundreds of people to order?
do you realise how much it was to buy cd burning equipment in the early 90's? why didn't sony charge $2000 per music cd? after all it was about 12 million bucks to set it up!
can't you see what your saying? your saying that every time you change the format to a new one, you don't sell enough to recoup the value!
well if you had any business brains, and i see that you don't, you'd realise that it's turnover that makes money.
but if you knew that, you'd probably be wealthy enough by now to not even waste your time still flogging it after 24 years and you'd be offering it at the cost of the dvd, $1 just to get it out there Then we could could say, hey what a great bloke he is, after years of sittig in the closet, this bloke actually bit the bullet and let it out, afterall, it's not your only income is it? you do, do courses don't you? you also consult don't you, so what's the big deal?
unfortunately for you, technology has overtaken and these days are different, just ask microsoft and sony, can they stop millions of people copying their stuff? what makes you think your dvd will be never copied and shared oline?
so at the end of the day, your recouping the money to pay for your toys,
and after 24 years, your still having fun with new technologies, yet the audio is still just in your hands and a select few!
doesn't this say that your going about it the wrong way?
surely your not that silly.
Yep i agree with murray too, if it's free then it's devalued somewhat, but hey, isn't this forum free? i don't think people undervalue it's worth for spreading the permie word.
I don't hear of muzzy wuzzy asking for a dollar from everyone 'cos he spends so much time keeping it a forum and not a spam/peddlers paradise.
end of the day, it's time you old-school permies moved aside and let the new generation spread the word, it's obvious that you's haven't and still won't, even though you very well know that you'll be lucky to distribute this dvd to a few hundred people, when it should be to ten's of thousands, so the only way is for the inevitable now, technology is at everyones fingertips, the internet has changed everything.
If you can't see this then that's your problem.
doesn't matter what you do or say, people aren't that silly.
btw, thanks for making this dvd available, i'm eagerly awaiting my copy, yeah yeah, i know it's pricey, but i consider the $70 an investment for those who would never of heard this audio otherwise, seventy bucks is a small price to pay for it's freedom!
Please release me.. Let me go.......
I'm a way of life, i'm not your ho...... - permaculture.
at the end of the day it's a free market and people are free to purchase ... or not. there's no need to make these personal attacks on ethics, writing style, motivation and business acumen.
a question - should bill mollison be giving away all his information in digital form because a download "is free"?
actually - i have google ads running on the non-logged in version of the forum that make me about USD$40 a month.
Separate names with a comma.