Discussion in 'Breeding, Raising, Feeding and Caring for Animals' started by Michaelangelica, Dec 29, 2010.
?? I have chestnut horses Equus caballus, although sometimes they think they are Equus ferus.
Not Aesculus hippocastanum, they are toxic
The leaves and seeds are toxic, even to us humans. I know it's a great medicine for cardiac problems causing oedema, veneous insufficiency etc, and as an anti-inflammatory, but look at the dosages used for that. It's toxic if used as a food/feed and can cause severe colic and death in horses. Even the medicinal extract can cause gastro-intestinal problems.
The horse chestnut fruits are used as animal fodder, but they need preparation to get rid of the bitter principle and make them pallatable. Maude Grieves states "In Eastern countries considerable use is made of Horse Chestnuts for feeding horses and cattle, and cattle are said to eat them with relish, though pigs will not touch them. The method of utilizing them is to first soak them in lime-water, which deprives them of the well-known bitter flavour inherent in the nuts, and then to grind them to a meal and mix them with the ordinary provender."
The problem is also that horse chestnuts contain aesculetin (a coumarin) which inhibits platelet function. Maybe we need to learn a lesson from the pigs.
The edible chestnut, and I love them roasted, is the sweet chestnut (Castanea sativa). For animal fodder, and to please my tummy, I would grow this tree and I would have no problem letting the horses graze under it and consuming the fruits and leaves.
Aescin is actually a mixture of triterpene saponins/triterpene oligoglycosides.
Aesculus pavia contained a coumarin named pavietin, (,S-6-[2-(hydroxymethyl)butoxy]-7-hydroxy-4-methyl-2 H-chromen-2-one).
Japanese horse chestnut (Aesculus turbinata) seeds contain coumarins
Aesculus indica countains coumarin as does
Aesculus assamica " "
I would have thought that if HCSE had coumarins the medical profession would be running around screaming about interaction with Warfarin etc I can't see much of that in the medical data
If you can help me out here I would be grateful
HCSE... and I am assuming you are talking about the standardised product containing 16% aescin, does not contain aesculin. See E.S.C.O.P Monograph on Hippocastani Semen (p. 250). I am talking aesulin which is a courarin glycoside and is found in the bark, buds and pericarb. Thus if you plant a horse chestnut tree for fodder, you will need to make sure that the animals under the tree don't munch on the pericarb and only eat the seed devoid of it.
I am sorry I can not add a quote for you as I am looking at my text books, but if you have Simon Mills and Kerry Bone's book "The Essential Guide to Herbal Savety", p. 471., you will find that aesculin is present in Aesculus hippocastanum, just not in the seed. But... if you look at the whole fruit, including the pericarp, then it does contain aesculin. I suppose what it really means is if you use HCSE you better make sure it is standardised, so you know it does not contain aesculin, which may be a contaminant because of slack manufacturing processes.
Out in the field where our animals graze we can not control what they eat from under the chestnut tree so they may very well ingest bark, leaves and pericarp along with the seeds, and thus the possibility exists they ingest coumarins.
Just saying and I love being able to discuss the finer parts of herbalism with you . Are you a herbalist as well? TCM?
Check out this monograph of Aeculus hippocastanum https://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/14/3/278.pdf
Published in the Alternative Medicine Review Volume 14, Number 3 2009
I have that book somewhere in my library but don't have ready access to it at the moment.
I don't practice--too scary, but do have some PG quals. in the Pharmacy of HMs
Perhaps i should work with animals; I do prefer them to people!
I have grown and studied herbs most of my life.
I found about 500 papers on HCSE dating back to the 1950s Only one mentioned coumarins in HC. Unfortunately I was not able to access complete paper to see if they referenced it. A lot of European Language stuff was also hard to get. Saponins seem to be the most common compounds found.
It is annoying, isn't it, when research papers, so often, don't tell you which part of the herb they are using
I practiced for 2 years, then had the brilliant idea to study nursing to combine the two disciplines... well. That didn't work out and the human practice went bye-byes. It was too frustrating anyway, too many egos.
Animals are much more fun and it's heaps more rewarding.
Help me out... PG quals? Pharmacy of HMs?
Yes, it can be quite interesting, especially when they use common names, or the generic name, classifications etc changed over the decades. I am of German descent, grew up in Cologne and it's really interesting to see what is happening in Europe compared to here. Herbal medicine, naturopathy, and similar is a valued adjunct to medical practice yet here in Australia it still has the air of quackery, regardless of the ever increasing amount of scientific research validating the action of herbs... which then the pharmaceutical companies pounce on... extract the 'main' active and market it for big bucks, going as far as trying to patent the plant nature created... but I digress from the purpose of this thread.
I reckon we will be having some really awesome discussions on various herbs for managing the health of animals.
BTW... Meadowsweet...(old name Spirea ulmaria, now Filipendula ulmaria) is one of my favourite herbs, together with Yarrow (Achillea millefolium)
I did nursing first then psychology then sea change (herb farm) did acouple of years with Denis Stewart then studied Herbals Meds at Syd Uni school of Pharmacy.
I loved Germany The pharmacies are actually full of medicine, The German approach to regulating Herbal Medicines one of the most intelligent in the world. Though emerging nations Brazil, China and India are reclaiming their heritage.(Japan has for a while with herbal meds on PBS)
"Evidence" seems to mean different things to different people.
I am re-writing a herbal book I wrote some years ago to take account of all the research of the last 10-20 years. It is quite staggering (the knowledge explosion) and i cannot access some of the foreign language stuff. It is a bit overwhelming and my family tell me the book is now too academic and unreadable.
I have now forgotten a lot more than I knew about herbs; there is always more to know
I made an Amazon list of new Herbals (really Advanced texts) and stopped at about 500. while my library used to keep up with this now I am no longer able to.
Yes the Pharmaceutical companies run a "Quackery" (Interesting that the word was first used for doctors that used Mercury-"quacsilver") campaign, yet at the same time are doing so much research and patenting of herbal/natural compounds. we don't see a lot of the work. There is also a ""sceptics"" campaign in Australia trying to keep Herbal Medicines out of Universities This is sad and short-sighted. The Pharmacy course I did has been axed in a cost cutting(?) campaign
Yes Meadowsweet. (Spirea= Asprin) is fascinating especially with the new research on aspirin and cancer etc; the main drawback the GIT problems with Aspirin, which does not happen with the herb!
Yarrow yes, a most underrated herb, used 60,000 years ago from archaeological evidence at Shanidar IV
I studied with Denis too . Got my Dip. med. herb in 1995. Depending on when you studied with him could very well be we met at Ourimbah oh so long ago.
Let me know if you come across some German stuff you need translating.
Also finally dawned on me PG... post grad, Pharmacy of HM... Herbal Medicine.
It's amazing stuff herbal medicine. I always wanted to do the Herbal Energetics Denis taught. When I did my dip we didn't need it, but the year after us studied it, that and aryuvedic medicine. I have to admit one of my favourite lecturers was Andrew Pengelly. Small world ... isn't it.
Now I am looking even more forward to our exchanges
Funny, bought a $10 German herbal (with plates) at a second hand bookshop some time ago
A rare find.
Andrew is still about, somewhere in Hunter valley; although he did not have the flair of Dennis, he certainly had the science down pat. I was at his wedding with Sunflower.
I did a couple of years lectures with Dennis, before he moved to Orimbah, but never did exams or assignments. I spent most of the time side tracking him so he would tell his wonderful stories. He may have been glad to see the back of me. No Herbal Med at Orimbah/Newcastle now,
i can't get the theory of Ayurvedic medicine to stay in my head,. I Had a couple of Indian lecturers on this; the science was fine but the philosophy kept falling out my left ear; as does TCM , Ying and Yang and Chi is about as far as I get
i am toying with the idea of doing some Organic Chemistry and/or biochemistry next year, but. . .
Bees, sheep, and chimps are just a few of the animals known to self-medicate. Can they teach us about maintaining our own health?
. . .
Researchers investigating the phenomenon of self-medicating animals hope their work can augment animal husbandry practices. “The idea is to provide plants and supplements with natural products like tannins and the opportunity for animals to select [these products] themselves, and reduce their parasitic burden as needed,” Juan Villalba at Utah State University explained. This could help alleviate the specter of drug-resistant pathogens, which often arise as animal managers preemptively dose all animals in their charge.
This thread was a fascinating read and I will add this recent article on commercial chicken producers trying oregano, oregano oil and cinnamon for their natural antibiotic properties:
Since reading this and ther posts here I will ba adding to the list of herbs that will be planted in numerous patches in my pastures. I am planting three young weeping willow trees in my pastures for medicinal fodder and summer shade as well . I am open to more suggestions for multiuse plantings for poultry, people and various grazing animals .
This might be of interest
from this paper
i think i might need some vica faba
(feeling a little fragile )
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