Locked threads

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by eco4560, Aug 13, 2012.

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  1. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    simple it is the judgements against a persons character that are the no go.

    someone sees my signature line they seem to view it as a reflection of my character so they use it against me that is a judgement another is they may go to my web page and zero in on what they view as an insight into my character so they make a judgement and then in all cases publish that judgement against the rules of good debating, which is we state our cases as such.

    sounds like this thread is about to be locked that to me looks like a one strike and you are out rule, so in the case of that new individual who is building bridges, i don't seem to be doing too bad, especially when at first he/her seemed to not be that partial to me either..

    len
     
  2. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day pebble

    I genuinely appreciate your comments, at all times, and I agree; we do communicate very well. I look forward to continuing this tradition.

    Yes, it has been a long time since I have felt so strongly about a member's behaviour here on the main board, and probably even longer since I expressed my displeasure directly to that individual.

    Concerning the links I provided:

    The first is a very accessible book (I would suggest readable by people studying at/or above year 9 secondary education). It is a vitally important work, and probably one of the most respected (albeit, non-Indigenous) accounts on the topic. In fact, it was 'voted the 10th most influential work of Australian non-fiction of the 20th century' by the readers of Australia's two largest daily broadsheets (p. rear cover). Hence the reason why I would urge anyone with an interest in the topic to read it.

    The second is a series that first aired on SBS TV (Australia). Similar to the above, it too has won a number of prestigious (highly respected) awards, and I would likewise suggest it is easily digestible by people at a year 9 level reading ability. Many of our students hate reading - they tell us so. For this reason we encourage people to source their information via a wide variety of mediums. With the advent of digital media, there are a many great pieces of work (both historical and contemporary) that have transferred well to the video genre. The above is one of those contemporary pieces, and I have no doubt it will become a classic. Of course, it would be great if we could all actually get an opportunity to sit down with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and listen to their oral histories first hand, but we can't. The above DVD (incidentally, it is still available for viewing on Australian TV at the SBS website) is the next best thing.

    As a general comment regarding this topic: I do realise that not everyone has had an opportunity to access secondary (let alone tertiary) education. However, in this forum (as I do in reality) I always try to pitch my written (spoken) word to what I surmise is a slightly higher frame of reference for any intended reader (listener). I do this as mark of respect. When first meeting someone, and when invited, I always try to talk 'up' to that person, rather than 'down'. Of course, if that same said person comes back with, 'what the [email protected]#$ are you talking about', I would (and do) always try to adjust any subsequent response accordingly. Eventually, it is always my hope that I can converse with people on every level. I always strive to talk 'with' people, and never 'at' them. Sometimes I am good at this, sometimes not so good. I just have to keep practicing. It takes time, especially on a medium such as this, to develop a good and respectful rapport such as the one you and I share. And sometimes, it would seem, people new (and not so new) to the forum are reluctant (for whatever reason) to invest the time into developing that kind of rapport. However, and as we all mostly do here at the PRI Forum, we keep trying; because good communities are based on good communication.

    Well, smoko is over; got to get back to the thesis.

    Cheerio, Markos
     
  3. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Len,
    I haven't seen judgements against you for the faith you believe in. What I have seen and what frustrates me is the continual accusation that anyone putting forward a science based argument has never backed up any 'claims' with evidence. Yet there is a wealth of evidence out there in libraries, museums, published papers and
    online. Marko for one (and others on another thread) have been thoughtful enough to take the time to point out any number of credible sources for you to read for yourself. What I see is your total refusal to make any objective investigation and basic research into anything anyone has pointed you to. And furthermore you continually insult those involved in the broad scientific field with wild generalisations of a damaging and untruthful nature. Well I understand now if I didn't before that a faith based belief system debating with a science based belief system is akin to banging one's head against a wall for both parties. (Sigh)
    And as for mushroom and LSD induced 'insight' ............I will admit - no tolerance from me for that rubbish.......sorry!
     
  4. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    Seriously Len you are the last person who should be judging people on their debating skills
    You put you sig up for others and yet it seems so apt for you, why is it wrong to use it on you aswell?
    Your have no interest in bridges or debate or real knowledge Len ,your mind is closed to all outside opinions that contradict your religion/world view.
    Your wheel barrow is full to overflowing.
    So stop kidding yourself or stop kidding us,none believes it for a second.
     
  5. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    "I think we all need to be content with what we have and
    hope that we can find serenity and tranquillity in
    a world that we do not always understand."
    I am just so glad I did not get a pm - so before I do I would like to apologize for my outburst and express my admiration and gratitude for the work of our mods.
     
  6. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Are we all done yet?
     
  7. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    This thread will go down in history. I lied when I said the forum had better discussions several years ago (not very technical though).

    Quite pleased to get some insights into why Markos posts the way he does, and good to see he is human with a healthy visible outburst.

    Interesting to see a slow slide into insanity also.
     
  8. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    True
    This has been a very insightful thread.
    I give it 5 stars
     
  9. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    I just received this personal message from moderator eco4560r:



    eco4560
    eco4560 is offline Moderator

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    Default Cease and desist

    You don't appear to be paying attention. Multiple, respected members of the online permaculture community have given you clear feedback that your communication is out of line. Yet you continue to be rude and aggressive and disrespectful. This is a permaculture site and when asked about permaculture you make fun of it. And then hide under the argument that it was just a meaningful and robust discussion and anyone who takes offence is emotionally immature.

    I would recommend that you reflect on the number of times you have been banned from other sites. Perhaps it isn't everyone else that needs an attitude adjustment. Unless you conduct yourself in a manner in keeping with socially accepted mores I will ban you.
     
  10. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    Fair enough. Spells it out. What more could you want?

    It's a moderator's prerogative to moderate the discussion. And that PM states what moderation needs to take place.

    There are rules in Permaculture, just like in life, just like on Internet forums.

    This is the next step in your spiritual journey...
     
  11. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Hmmm, as much as I agree with some of the criticisms of Zvall's posts, I don't actually see then behaving in a way that deserves banning.

    What have they done in this thread? Posted alot. Had a spat with Marko. Not listened or engaged particularly well with people at times. Annoyed others with their complaints about free speech, and insulted people's views about lots of things. What else? To be really honest, I don't see Zvall's behaviours as any worse than len's.

    I haven't seen Zvall attack anyone, abuse anyone, troll, flame, harrass, or stalk anyone. Those are things that people get banned for. Here is seems a few complaints offsite are enough. If this is an issue about limits on the moderators time, fair enough, I think we should be honest about that. If it's an issue of the conversations being too offtopic for a permaculture forum, we should make that known upfront. I do think there is an issue about threads becoming longwinded when people aren't listening to each other, but much of this thread is len and marko, or len and zvall talking to each other. Is there harm being done here other than that some people don't like zvall?


    I did think we could send them over to permies.com though ;-) seeing as how Paul is so generous to send refugees our way. Sorry, that was naughty of me.
     
  12. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    btw, I see I missed some replies to me earlier...

    Leila, thanks for being honest about the problem in the other (locked) thread. I wasn't sure if you had meant me. Or if eco had meant me either. I do prefer if people are direct in their criticisms (and as kind or respectful as they can be).

    S.O.P, I will start a new thread for the links to Geoff.
     
  13. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I thought the moderator's PM was reasonable and well crafted. I think it was a PM (Personal Message) that really should have remained personal. The fact that zvall went ahead and 'shared' it was a very good example of his lack of respect for the forum and in general.

    I understand what you are saying pebble and good on you for being more tolerant than many of us. I don't know what the definition of a 'troll' is but I would have thought some of his efforts certainly fitted the bill.

    I don't think Len's behaviour is the same though. Sure, many of his ideas appear to me to be misguided and naive, he may show ignorance at times, but I don't think he goes trolling for a reaction. And he does talk about permaculture. He is genuine in his passion for permaculture and I think he is genuine in his compassion for his fellow man. I'm sure he wants what us other permies want. THAT is the big picture.

    From my interpretation of zvall's behaviour, I got the distinct impression that he was un-interested in permaculture, and at best, passingly interested in anything other than his own opinion. That Jesus was some kind of mushroom-head is NOT the big picture.

    Lets not attack our own. If you don't agree with someones view, just say so and move on. Does it really make any difference if climate change exists or not? Does it really make any difference who came up with the messages of Jesus and other prophets?

    Not one thing that has been discussed across these contentious threads makes one scrap of difference to how I need to go about my daily tasks. Can you think of anything that would cause you to say 'Ya know what, I don't need to do this whole permaculture thing anymore. What was I thinking anyway?'?

    To me this is how I am supposed to live, this is who-i-am. So come on folks, lets move on from the hostilities, lets not give oxygen to pointless gumph. Lets get back to permaculture.

    This will be my last post on this subject unless someone gives me a compelling reason to say more.

    What's say we kick sand on this one and move on?
     
  14. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    lol oh sighhh another patronizing remark

    what does everyone else THINK. FEEL?

    Please think for yourself and don't be fearful of authority.

    Do you think what he said is fair?

    I know in that locked thread there were some people who could dig where I was coming from and were surprised the thread was locked...?
     
  15. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    Dont agree here at all
    He may have passion but virtually every post regardless of what the topic is will include a troll of GW ,carbon tax greenies,green fishing zones,pro coal, anti science, anti facts,peak oil,pro monsanto
    Its all very deliberate and very measured to get a response from a targeted audience.
    A troll by any measure.

    Bit hard to be all for a permaculture big picture when you believe literally that the earth is less than 6,000 years old so all resources are virtually renewable,to be exploited by man as a gift from God.
     
  16. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    Although I personally do not believe the Earth is less than 6ooo years old, he is entlited to his view, and all I know is that Len has treated me with respect at these forums.
     
  17. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    Didnt say he wasnt entitled to his views just doubt it could be incorporated in big picture permaculture thinking.
     
  18. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    " Sure, many of his ideas appear to me to be misguided and naive, he may show ignorance at times, but I don't think he goes trolling for a reaction."

    Grahame, I don't have a problem with Len's views, even where I disagree with them. I have a problem with him posting off topic rants and mini rants every chance he gets, and with his hypocrisy - everyone else is always wrong, everyone makes judgements apart from him, he is the only person who thinks independently etc (and in this sense zvall and len are very similiar, so it doesn't surprise me they get along). Very boring, and ignorable except when it is everywhere and when people get hooked in. I tend to agree with Grasshopper's description. I agree with you Grahame about Len and permaculture and I wish for the Len of old.

    Because of that I'm surprised to see Zvall being threatened with a ban. Zvall's been in two main threads, whereas Len posts in the way's described over many threads and arguably causes much more disruption. I'm not suggesting Len be banned, but I do think the moderators should be putting some limits in place.
     
  19. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    For instance, I thought about starting a thread about permaculture and science. I imagined it would look at the intersections and things like where cutting edge science supports Pc as well as established science. Possibly look critically at where science is failing. But I'm not going to do that if Len is going to come in and be a dog in a manger and derail the thread with multiple posts about climate change and how scientists are evil.
     
  20. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    seems to me Len is being used by this group as a kind of scapegoat?
     
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