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Discussion in 'The big picture' started by eco4560, Aug 13, 2012.

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  1. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day zvall

    US affairs are generally outside of my sphere of expertise (although I do dabble in continental land use planning issues). As such, I tend to steer away from commenting too much about the same. However, I do have a fairly good grasp of the past and present machinations of Australia, in many forms, so I offer the following:

    Concerning the treatment of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people post (1788) contact with the Europeans: If it is the 'truth' (or as close as we can imagine it to be) you want, may I suggest you get a hold of and read the following:

    Elder (2003) Blood on the Wattle: Massacres and maltreatment of Aboriginal Australians since 1788 - Third Edition

    Make sure you read the third edition, as it includes Elder's rebuttal of Windshuttle's critique of the earlier editions.

    Then, see if you can get yourself a copy of and watch the following:

    SBS (2008) First Australians: The Untold Story

    One of my undergrad sociology lecturers provided input into the above.

    Concerning the occult, its connection with Australia and in particular, the planning of Canberra: If you search YouTube, you'll find heaps of whacko stuff on this topic that probably matches the content of the link you provided above in terms of credibility (I confess, I only watched three quarters of it... there is only so much of an assault upon one's intelligence that one can bear). However, if it is the 'truth' that you are after concerning this topic, then you could do a lot worse than read Marion Mahony Griffin's (1871-1961): The Magic of America. As always, I find it best to try and get to the primary source, don't you think? I'm about three quarters of the way through it (although, I have read all of the material that is concerned with their Australian phase), and I am in love with the work of this women - truly an amazing human being.

    Concerning extreme capitalism, the ongoing abrogation of Aboriginal people's rights, and extreme scale environmental destruction in Australia: If you want to find out the 'truth' about this lot, you'll find much of it contained in the following biography I have only just finished reading:

    Ferguson (2012) Gina Rinehart: The untold story of the richest women in the world

    Rinehart, as the title suggests, is reputedly the richest women in the world. And, if the (mainly) Chinese keep buying our iron ore, she could become the richest person in the world (in about 5-10 years time)... perish the thought...

    I hope some of the above proves enlightening, if you do indeed get the chance to check it out.

    Cheerio, and keep smiling, Markos
     
  2. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    Although I admit I also try and link people to info that has influenced me, I surely cannot expect in the flow of conversation that they suddenly read a book, or watch a whole video series that I may have studied myself. it is rally just in case they are interested and want to make a note of it. But we somehow have to be able to communicate in real time and not try and block inquiry through expecting people to wade through daunting reams of information that we may not have time for. It is very easy to use put-down statements like "whacko" concerning other people efforts of exploring the reality we are ALL living in, and I don't know how watching just a beginning of something you can assert that neither.
    I know this--that at certain forums they tend to fragment subjects--just like the 'education' system does, so for example if in the 'spirituality' forum you would mention 'politics' your post would be moved to 'politics' and if you started talking about the possibility the rich elite rulers were involved in occultism your post would be moved to the 'lowest of the low'---the 'Conspiracies and Cover-ups' lol, and there--at least another forum I am at view are irrationally attacked by the mods there who break their own rules by trolling--basically out and out abusive ridicule.

    What we DO need however is a willingness to learn interconnections. That's what I try and do. So for example when you look at the origins of western occultism you see its philosophy is based on the belief of 'spirit' being trapped in matter. This would be counter to the Indigenous view that nature is sacred. IE., that nature is full of spirits
     
  3. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day zvall

    A friendly suggestion: try reading more widely. Peer-reviewed literature is a good place start. Your local library will be full of it.

    Cheerio, Markos
     
  4. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    Mr 'cheerio, Markos, I can assure your patronizing tone that I have read 'more widely' ( but even if I haven't I still have the right to share my views of things!)---as I am sure you have, though maybe the wrong books, who knows? You are of course free to talk, and I wont be secretly trying to get you quieted, but in a direct way will tell you that I also do not welcome condescension
     
  5. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day zvall

    By all means, share you views. However, if you persist in qualifying those views with vague references to obscure, pseudo-scientific crap, then I'm afraid you leave people with no other choice than to dismiss your views as the (mostly) incomprehensible ramblings of a person who really hasn't got a fucking clue.

    Seriously, I am sorry for coming across as patronising, indeed condescending. However, what did you expect? You waltz into an Internet forum, start banging on about how poorly you were treated at another forum, and then waste no time before launching into a 50-odd-post diatribe about your hallucinogenic-induced 'spiritual' trips. Of course, you do all this under the pretext that people are 'free to question each other', but the moment someone attempts to do just this, you either ignore them, or make obscure claims about being censured. The post was closed, not deleted.

    I don't know, but I suspect that English may not be your first language. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have attempted to be tolerant of any faux pas that you may have unknowingly committed, not that I care too much for that. I have lived a very full life, across, through and among many different cultures. I have even looked fondly back on those parts of my life where I have experienced my own trips in an attempt to better understand your point of view. But even that has failed to help me see much of what it is that you are trying to convey.

    People here, on the whole, have been very kind and generous toward you. Many have attempted to engage you in conversation, but for the most part, it would appear that it is not a conversation you desire, rather it is a platform with which to espouse your view, unhindered by those who might challenge you. Look back over your posts. Many (most) of them are filled with you imploring, 'we MUST do this, we must DO that'.

    Occasionally, you do appear to edge toward a lucid point in your verbal disgorge, but then you lurch off again on some other obscure tangent. For example, here you made a very valid admission, only to follow it up (in the very next sentence) with a contradiction:

    And when I genuinely offered you a very basic reading/watching list on the subject, so that you could at least in the future speak (write) with just a little bit of credibility on the matter, you claim something along the line of, 'I have no time ... this breaks my flow of conversation...'

    Finally, you ask me to watch some tin-foil-hat crap on YouTube, which I do (at least for the first three quarters of it, and mostly out of respect to the Aboriginal man that spoke at length in it), and then you challenge me to:

    Well, I did.

    Condescending? Maybe, in your view. Patronising? Maybe that in your view too. Either way, I genuinely do wish you a safe and happy trip.

    Cheerio, Markos
     
  6. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    Mr 'gday' 'cheerio' Markus, I simply am not attracted to you. Your manner is --well passive agressive aint in it LOL

    and extraordinarily condescending!

    I will ignore whoever I please

    So, as they say, speak to the hand!

    From now on I ignore you. MAYBE you are too clever for me ( I damn know you think you are), but that kind of clever I can live without. And those kind of manners to.
     
  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    dunno to me zvall is an ok person probably better than ok but i judge not, making judgements of others fairly rife in these forums, people denigrating others to protect their own box and comfort zone.

    heck going to peer revue be like asking satan to lead one to the true GOD, the peer revue system is no guage of the topic of science. i was a mower mechanic my revue was the bosses customers if i was no good he would lose money and i would lose my job, that is real revue, not a boys/girls type club patting each other on the back over drinks at the club.

    can be seen here in this secular australia and the world for that matter we will forever be divided whilst sciences are held in god like regard. it is becoming more clear to me that it si not racism dividing us but science and racism is used as a smoke screen. we had no racism in that safe suburb in the 40's and 50's etc.

    i am happy that we believe what we believe it keeps our feet on the ground, keeps us as compassionate humanitarians, and with the ethics we follow(ethics that form the basis of many other ethical systems). again i have a history book that was begun around 6k years ago, science have nothing but speculation, hypothesis and theory. it's a free world worship what you must i say to others, i make no judgement. we simply have lost our ethical standard in our community, so how can we point new people immigrants to what we believe that they need to respect, immigrate to their countries see how you get on. last i heard eg.,. you could marry and live in japan but only your spouse(japanese) could invest or own land you couldn't, yet aus' gives our land away to be mined and farmed for oterh nations security and we punish ourselves with that ancient mariner's albatross call co2 tax. i just read where the US is claiming some 20 or so % reduction in co2 emissions simply by using more natural gas, yet our nation pollutes the ground by pulling out gas and selling it cheaply to the asian nations, stupid lot we are led by worshiped sciences. guess the US won't be whipping themselves with a carbon tax anytime soon hey? nor will the asians.

    some one commented earlier about people talking freely about various topics well we can see now that is fraught with danger. keep in mind that the 'net may give us an anominity so great we feel free to say things we might not say face to face. also had my posts attacked for spelling and grammar, that is not anyone choice to denigrate an other in that fashion.

    take care

    len
     
  8. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    just to add a footnote:

    i believe in a deity called GOD from that i do not hide, but my belief is not i say not being imposed upon others for some invisible gain but at great expense, please keep that in mind those who believe in the science you have won at that level, but it is a minority ruling over the majority. it is also just theory it has no solid evidence of long standing written history of its events. their smoke screen may very well be the discrimination's we are all accused of.

    people here no doubt are intelligent people but structural wisdom is lacking maybe?

    again take care

    len
     
  9. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    Your cool Len,

    I often get annoyed when I read people who SEEm to think they are talking about deep stuff in their books but their words, and way they talk act to me like a BARRIER to people who aren't 'educated' like them. they will use all this academicy type words, and finish sentences like this. (Vaughn 83, Jones 72) --meaning you have got to go runnin to the library to read the books, or the references from them lol. Thing is that they may take references from these books but the authors do not mean what they are meaning for their thesis--so what then...?:shake: lol, get me? I was reading someone the other day --and it was this clash between what she was saying, ie trying to speak out for oppressed people, but using this lingo which for me oppresses and shuts common folks out so I emailed her about this but am not expecting a reply anytime soon:D

    My grandpa said to me not ever to use fancy words when I tried to explain stuff, and I hope I don't. the IDEA I may talk of may seem weird to some people but I try to speak about them in speech that everyone can instead of some stuff academicees

    Where you talk about science and racism. PLEASE will you watch this video. it is extremely powerful and shows the danger of scientism:

    Scientific Racism: The Eugenics of Social Darwinism
     
  10. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    in reality zvall,

    we get bullied by their intelligence which blocks them fro keeping it simple and using sense and common sense, i have proved often and with my level of intelligence and beliefs i can communicate with others on a common level without dictating my beliefs.

    for now all we can do is walk the way and try to cut down the barriers put in place by others.

    watched the video well enough already these same sciences with their worshippers are doing the same more subtley. by stealth. hidden faces and names, terrible indictment against mankind. we may never change anything for the better for all but we had our say for others.

    take care, or dare i say God bless? it is but a salutation.

    len
     
  11. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    yeah it is why in this thread or the locked one---I highlighted 'language' when focusing attention on the medioum being used, cause I know it can also be used as a weapon. Thishas been so in patriarchal mythology. If we look at the Genesis myth of the Garden of Eden, for example---all the ancient symbols are there which are part of the Goddess mythology, and benign, pointing to sacred insights, the Tree, Serpent, Fruit, Garden, etc, but the LINGO is used in the myth is intended to degrade these images!

    Fast forward to now, and we have the mental illness myth where they use lingo to oppress people including children. Using language and pretending it is meaning medical scientific proof.

    And of course like said the academic way of writing and talking,

    and official gobbledegook:

     
  12. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    I lack all of Marko's elequence - why don't you piss off!!!???
     
  13. BananaBender

    BananaBender Junior Member

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    que quirky music...

    "Like sands through the hourglass..."

    No offence but you need to get out in the garden more zvall.
     
  14. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    There was nothing passive aggressive about Marko's post. It was outright aggressive, but not in a bad way IMO. I've not seen Marko post like that before, and I think this is a case of strong words being needed.

    It seems that others agree. We are a community, it's unclear to me why anyone would ignore a number of voices saying the same thing.

    Zvall, I tend to agree with Marko that you seem to be using the forum for your own agenda. Marko and I disagree in debate at times, but we still manage to communicate meaningfully (I hope!). If you and Marko aren't getting on that is fine, but he is right in that you don't seem ok with people challenging your views.


    Marko, re the links you gave on Aboriginal reality. I would say though that for some people academia is not accessible, including in books. Not everyone has that kind of brain function.

    The big thing that stands out for me, both here and reading at permies.com, is the lack of discussion about critical thinking, what it is, how to recognise it, and how to engage it. In terms of the divide in Pc re spirituality, this seems a crucial factor.



    I'm assuming that this thread will get locked soon.
     
  15. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    *snigger*
     
  16. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yes pebble,

    but there are many times others push their own barrow and with some strength as well, i would not think i fall into favour in the inner sanctum. but many times pressure applied for fact to support my common sense ways. but funnily enough the opposing view has never posted fact of their claims to fame, and my beliefs are not being forced upon the masses who are terribly naive to most modern stuff unless they have high school indoctrinated kids to brow beat them over the dinner table 5 nights a week.

    at times it can cut to the quick when gangsmanship is applied and tollerated, but they are running at high speed without all the parameters in play.

    best bet i reckon let the heat come off and stay right away from making anything that is a judgement, keep in mind when you judge someone you do not know personally you judge them by your own merits.

    len
     
  17. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    There have been two more complaints about the behaviour on this thread and this time it is clear who the protagonist. So yes - this thread may be locked soon and the protagonist banned from the forum. If you haven't received a PM about it then it ISN'T you. Final chance to conduct yourself in a manner appropriate for a community.
     
  18. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Hi len,

    I don't really understand what you are talking about. I have no idea who the inner sanctum is, or the opposing view that has never posted fact of claims to fame. Are you talking about Marko? Why not just say so?

    I have my own fair share of criticism of science, but what I see missing from you is an attempt build bridges.


    "stay right away from making anything that is a judgement, keep in mind when you judge someone you do not know personally you judge them by your own merits."

    You seem to be the most judgemental person on the form at the moment len. You comment about judgement is something that suppresses debate - anyone who disagrees with you get's judged as judgemental, as if that is a failing. Ah the irony.
     
  19. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    all i can say to this pebble i do not make the judgements i talk of i may make general judgements or i would not have an opinion and what bridges i am trying to build bridges to humanitarium things, not to false science leading us to a pitfall.

    len
     
  20. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    You will have to explain the difference in the judgements len, because it's not obvious from what you say. And why some kinds of judgements are ok and others aren't.
     
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