Locked threads

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by eco4560, Aug 13, 2012.

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  1. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    As long as it doesn't come up in the 'New Posts' link, I would be happy.

    Problem is, if the PRI forum is a 'front' for permaculture in Australia, those sort of things are probably best left on another forum.

    To me, it really comes back to all the permaculture pioneers missing from the discussions, someone with a serious reputation to keep the threads in order, and backing up their discussions with proven results. Look at all those great threads from 2005-2009, for example.
     
  2. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Could you link to a couple of examples from that time S.O.P?
     
  3. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    Ohhh okay. Anything in particular?

    Top of head: From 2009 with Geoff chiming in about Singapore Daisy when Eco was but a young pup: https://forums.permaculture.org.au/showthread.php?6203-Singapore-Daisy

    I particularly like a lot of threads when Darren Doherty (I've said it before - it's a shame the only posts he (she) makes now are Selling posts) was involved - work backwards from the 18th page of his posts: https://forums.permaculture.org.au/search.php?searchid=933763&pp=&page=18


    I usually search like this: 'singapore daisy site:permaculture.org.au' and I know, from anecdotal experience, the threads from that period will be more involved and technical.


    That's two (with more inside Darren's link) that I can get without spending time at it. I was going to post the other day about collating all the good old threads but I don't have the time for it, I've read them, absorbed what I could, and moved on and not thought about saving them. Good forums have active members who create thread stickies over the years to save on the work, otherwise most are lost to the ether.
     
  4. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    And now I'm reading Jeff Nugent's posts, I assume, the accomplished author.

    I just follow the names I recognise, you can find some great threads. And that may be the problem, everything has already been said, these people can't be bothered to say it again.


    How's this one that is relevant to my interests from 2003 (my dates were way off!): https://forums.permaculture.org.au/...ed-clay-soil-How-to-go-about-it&p=507#post507

    How could I have read that otherwise?


    How about this one from Darren from 2003? I can read the passion: https://forums.permaculture.org.au/showthread.php?92-Compact-subsoils&p=426#post426

     
  5. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Thanks! That singapore daisy thread is a classic for sure. If I get some time I'll have a look back at some of the others.
     
  6. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    I agree. This forum has a greater responsibility than some other internet messageboards. There are plenty of boards where folks can go to be rude and have fights with each other.
     
  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    pri and permaculture are hand in glove, it is the main shop front for australian permaculture.

    and yes SOP, one never sees the founders having discussions on the forum, unless of course they are using 'anon's' as names ans hide that way.

    did see molleson at a permaculture fair at teh brookfield showgrounds in brisbane, somewhat yuppy affair and pricey, no concessions and kids as young as forget now 12 or 13 had to be paid for. he did impart some wisdom i guess but never seen any of that discussed here. i've already made mention of those things but no one is interested least wise the upper echelon.

    sad that something that may have helped got turned into a chase for the almighty dollar.

    over on the spiritual side there is a new thread but for me it has already gone off track.

    len
     
  8. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    good point, not one of my brighter ideas then.

    May I suggest then, that if discussions get heated again, with others reporting to the moderators that they find what is being said offensive, ...that those concerned get PM'd with regards to this and either told to knock it off and/or to make use of the Private message system if they feel the need to go at it til they clear the air?
     
  9. Tildesam

    Tildesam Junior Member

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    I must admit I feel somewhat disappointed I've joined when PC's becoming so mainstream - I think I've missed some really nice dynamic with the big-boys of permaculture (I think I've read that "Money Money Money" thread a thousand times now)

    Of course the wealth of knowledge here is still very good, I'd have never learned any of this stuff just by reading books, certainly not the cultural aspects of things I've learned. You're all celebrities in my eyes anyway hehe ;-)
    (Besides, if I've been here in 2002 I'd have been 13-14! Not the most profound age for most of us)

    What the guys have said previously are right too though - We're pioneering if you will in a subject which covers the most sensitive topics in human nature - and these are the things that people defend most aggressively because it's what they live by. Regardless of how-cringeworthy some of the discussion may become, they are valid standpoints in the big picture - pros and cons that, no matter how crazy or unimportant, form part of the equation we're working out.

    You know, I did a degree with a minor in Philosophy of Science... and after 3 years of learning things I found to be rather grey and vague in opinion I realised something - usually the best way to get things heard is to say your opinion in a way that's neither here nor there - because if you're too hard left or right wing often you're at risk of being silenced (regardless of what is considered truth, often enough). However in this particular line of topic being neither here nor there isn't beneficial to the bigger picture - because turning away from the hard topics means we might miss something important!

    Okay that's my 2 cents, back to lurking :nerd:
     
  10. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    This is the crazy rant section
    But almost anything, it seems, can be controversial. Mods rarely interfere unless it becomes personal and/or nasty. In my time here that has happened only once or twice.
    These are your forums made for you, and need to serve your needs.

    There is enormous wisdom in old posts ( or at least nuggets of gold in mountains of earthworks) and i would encourage everyone to look there first before asking a question.

    Not sure how these forums are a "front" for anything or anybody??. PRI Australia pay for the programme and hosting but mods (all volunteers) rarely see them.( Unless we call for specialist programming help) As you say they may have heard it all before and moved on; or they could be out doing stuff rather than talking about it or tying to make a living from Permaculture

    You don't have to rely on hitting the "new posts' button" to find current discussions
    You just need to subscribe to the forums you are most interested in
    (the most popular, which gives me heart, is always Planting, growing, nurturing Plants.)
    Go to "forum tools" and choose the type of subscription you want
    You can also decide, to some extent, who you want to talk to, who you want to ignore and who you want more contact with. Take some time to look at all the features of this programme so that it best serves you and your needs.
     
  11. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    Hey Annette, I loved your post SO much it gave me a shiver. If I hear anything, words, music, an image that moves me I usually get shivers lol. Your post is exactly the spirit I was looking for from those exploring Permaculture!!..Fancy opening a forum..? lol

    let us take a step back. I was supposed to be the one being protected from a remark I called "put-down"? yet I had asked the person to explain more in depth what he meant. I didn't report him, or claim he should be reported. I am adult and do not need protecting, and if people think that was 'rough' or whatever, then you have led very cheltered lives, and maybe you should hang out at some Youtube video comments and see some of the real hate remarks you can get there. But what i LOVE about there, and I have never ever encountered it at any forum since I got online in about 2004--is that people are more or less left to themselves.

    Anyway continuuing--later I hear that some people had reported to the moderator about 'problems' in the debate so then THAT was offered as reason to lock the thread.

    Now, for such a subject like spirituality there are going to be people offended if you challenge beliefs--that is a fact. I remember some time back seeing someone explain that on an EEG or one of those devises that show electrical activity in the brain. That they claimed they found that when peoples beliefs are threatened these clusters light up on the brain graph which indicate pain! So what I mean is that for some people exploring ideas may be actually painful for them and they could want to censor it by whatever means. As we know in our history, if beliefs were threatened--like the Christian faith for example--not only would the ones 'threatened' feel pain, they would very likely inflict pain/torture on people and murder them--think of the Inquisition!

    But I want people in Permaculture to get over this, because they already know the intelligence of the land, and how we cannot use the same oppressive treatment of them like that mindset would have--it is ALL connected.

    A HUGE thing to consider when exploring spirituality is the very tool we are using to do it with--LANGUAGE. Language has been and continues to be used as a weapon by this civilization--one very important example is how it is used by the 'mental health movement' (Thomas Szasz, The Manufacture of Madness ), but also by all mythologies. because since the invention of writing, language has been used not only in poetic ways, and communicating things that help us as comminities, and fruitful knowledge, and how to live with nature, but also in manipulative ways that divide. A good example of the latter is the Book Of Genesis featuring the 'creation myth' of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden where the patriarchal writers use the lingo to dengrate the very ancient symbols of the Goddess, and living an earth-based spiritual life.

    So it is VITAL that any forum who hosts a going deep into exploring spirituality understands this and explains to anyone secretly or openly complaining about 'conduct' of discourse to bear with it, and be reminded that, as in permaculture "THE PROBLEMS ARE THE SOLUTIONS". We have to get over this trying to silence language--it is with language we explore with each other no matter how painful it may sometimes feel.
     
  12. pippimac

    pippimac Junior Member

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    zvall, I generally stay out of this kind of stuff, but this is where the fun is, so why not join in?;)
    Let's just say I'm not spiritually-minded, but I try to be respectful of other people, whether I agree with their beliefs or not.
    I'm pretty uncomfortable when I feel that 'discussion' is used as a synonym for 'bullying', and some of the 'discussion' in tht thread made me distinctly uncomfortable!
     
  13. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    Thanks for being honest. Can I ask---can you stay with that discomfort--explore why that is? Can you relate that feeling with the permaculture saying 'the problems are the solutions'? I am not being patronizing, but just trying to see how we all might explore this complex subject without trying to stop it
    Personally speaking when I talk about this, I do not disclude myself. When I enter the company of others, and discuss, I also may feel discomfort if I am challenged, but I will never want to avoid this feeling, and often what such challenges do for me is deepen my research into things, sharpen my understanding, and often will influence me into new areas of research.
    So surely as adults when any discussion is started and it is stated in the OP that there is a need for freedom of discussion, if we decide through choice to take part, we can all agree that there may very well be upset, discomfort, etc, but we have all agreed to dive in and so will honor this exploration and not try and get it censored because we may feel discomfort?
     
  14. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    "I'm pretty uncomfortable when I feel that 'discussion' is used as a synonym for 'bullying', and some of the 'discussion' in tht thread made me distinctly uncomfortable!"

    Leila, would you be willing to be specific? I didn't see any bullying in that thread, but I didn't read all of it. It's a hefty word to use, but if we are not specific then how can we change?
     
  15. pippimac

    pippimac Junior Member

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    Sure, although I feel uncomfortable about my language, and maybe my understanding of the discussion:(
    Anyway, the bit that got me was the way it seemed that zvall slapped down pinkperm for their christian beliefs. It didn't feel like discussion, questioning or exploration.
    Looking at it all now, I actually wouldn't have a clue and I probably have the wrong end of the stick. Again.
    I apologise in advance to those involved if I did!
     
  16. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    I think it is often very difficult to phrase our personal opinions about other beliefs in a way which does not in any possible way come off as an attack on another person's beliefs. For instance, even expressing personal disbelief of another set of beliefs and explaining why one doesn't believe them might be seen as an attack on someone who does profess those specific beliefs if it is not phrased in the most careful of terms. Most of us just aren't that good at extreme diplomatic language. :)

    If we could agree in these conversations to only talk about our own personal beliefs and not to express opinions about other sets of beliefs, it would be easier to avoid this kind of conflict. "Thank you for sharing" might be the only appropriate response in this context. But it's almost not a conversation, it's more a series of statements or essays, not much questioning or exploration.....
     
  17. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day ludi,

    in essence you are right, it does take a particular maturity to tolerate that others may see life differently, if we were all in the same room you would find it much more different face to face and with the advantage of seeing the other peoples body language and hearing the lilt of their voice and feeling their eyes, but the big fall down of the 'net is how people handle their guaranteed anonymity, we could pass each other in the street and not know it.

    to me it is where the minority turn into the majority through manipulation why there are lots of lurkers here, new people watch the field game and when they see others under ridicule they won't enter as the greatest fear of many is ridicule, so we get chats with really very few taking part. i left a message in the other thread should there be someone reading who may want to explore change, i haven't received and private messages and don't expect to. as most who are lurking and seen what has happened will not be confident in who they can trust.

    the moderators do a good job, they do need to be sure they are unbiased and objective and broad in their thinking, it is at their level that discussions can be kept impersonal, on many occasions i pointed out to a moderator online, and was told what the other person said was fine(which obviously is outside the parameters of the debate). there are good people around at times i have gained apologies from others.

    anyhow that's my piece

    len
     
  18. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    There is no way to be 'diplomatic' if you want to explore spirituality. I keep saying that IF people did not read the OP and understand that I had stressed this was a discussion where freedom must be central, why even join in if the moment you feel challenged you rush for the censor button? The areas I want to explore are not fo the faint hearted believe me lol But it appears that at this permaculture which supposedly cares for the land and air and waters, this freedom to explore spirituality in ALL its aspects is taboo/
    Why is someone coming into my thread and promoting the Christian myth not seen as offensive to me? I am not saying I was offended, I am not because I am a mature adult explorer of this subject, but why all this concern for some else being 'challenged'? What is the way out of this block--this energy block. I would have assumed people into permaculture would understand where I was coming from--a few do, but like me they are censored from participating.

    I must say it is not only 'moderns' who can act this way. One of the most oppressive censoring forums I have ever been with was a so-called real Native peoples forums called 'Plastic shamans and new age frauds'. I had originally gone there because at the time I was very interested in native peoples opinions about the UFO phenomena, and some westerners masquerading as native peoples talking about 'sat people' etc, but I met from members hostility even asking, and this very fascist female moderaor appeared throwing the rule book at me and being very offensive. I could not believe it, and felt really confined :(lol.
    But my nature is to keep asking questions. I left it, but later inquired about a western man who was practising ayahuasca healing in the Amazon...WELL that was it, I was called a druggie, and next breath I was banned with a very snide closing note last word "hope you get help with your drugs problem", and banned for life and my computer could not even access the forum. To say I had culture shock isn't in it.

    of course I am not accusing ALL Native American peoples because of this little experience. Like all peoples/communities you have all types of people, and I am afraid I have seen this heavy-handed power drunk attitude from many moderators in my experience of online forums, and they tend to create this attidue in many of the members. But I cannot bear anywhere where one is not free to ask questions. being 'uncomfortable' is just another excuse to censor free discourse.
     
  19. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    zvall you might find a more receptive discussion group on a spiritual messageboard, instead of a permaculture one. Most people here want to talk about permaculture. :)
     
  20. zvall

    zvall Junior Member

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    After all that has been said, please do not patronize me. Either that or you find it difficult to absorb what has already been said? Either way, you are entitled to your views of 'permaculture', but myself and other do not agree with your limited interpretation.
     
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