Living Mulch

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Cornonthecob, Dec 7, 2005.

  1. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    I'm trying to come up with a plan for my lychee orchard.

    Would comfrey be suitable closer to the trees?

    I would love to have the whole orchard (approx 50m x 200m) mulched and the only way I can think of being able to do that, and keep it like that, is to use something as a living mulch.

    Any and all thoughts much appreciated!

    :)
     
  2. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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    Greenharvest have an orchard mix - that is made up of various legumes. Check it out. I bought a set - but as is often the case with me, I got ahead of myself and never ended up using them.
     
  3. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    VB, have brought one of those from Green Harvest...and will hopefully get around to planting that (I got the 1/4 acre kit).
     
  4. Guest

    Hi Corny,
    I have been talking about this with Bio. My orchard has a clay shelf, and the citrus all fruit well if we get through that, but I am trying to improve things so that I can begin extending out from the traditional design.

    I am going to treat with lime and Bio's fish emulsion, and am still thinking what to then do. Bio suggested oats. I originally thought melons or pumpkins, but he was right in saying they need heaps of water, and probably won't do well in there as it is now. I am thinking maybe trying potatoes out there, as they will help break the soil too, and then spread a heap of oat hay as mulch... so ponies can still run in there, and hopefully it will also lead to a new crop for them.

    Does that sound workable to you? I am still humming and haaing.
     
  5. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Hi RF,

    If you can obtain ground up dolomite, or dolomitic limestone, it will reduce the acidity of your soil without damagine the soil biota like white lime does. Also, white lime is forbidden under organic certification as a soil amendment, though permitted as a barrier (if you paint your trunks with it, for example).

    Pumpkins can also be cropped well if they have a window of rain at the beginning and one or two wet spells during flowering. I know you probably have more severe dry seasons than we do, but you might still be able to pull one off.

    You sound troppical (citrus), you could try cocoyam (a taro relative), or casssava, both of which are originally tropical crops and will break up the soil as well as provide plenty of edible starch. I think they will out produce potato.

    Corny,

    A really nice cover crop is arachis pintoy. It is a relative of peanut and gives a beautiful covering for soil while fixing notrogen. With our 4-5 month dry season, it is "drought" resistant. Some of the desmodiums are suitable, too, and they can be chopped repeatedly.

    If you can get cannavalia ensiformis seed, that is excellent as a cover crop. It will grown quite quickly, cover a large area, and you can chop it back and the mulch is substantial....

    C
     
  6. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Of course, interplanting pidgeon peas and other similar nitrogen fixing shrubs that can be chopped and dropped, the mulch going directly to the fruit trees... Corny, I would maybe put the comfrey around the drip line of the litchies? It will spread out in time, both toward and away from the trees probably. How old are your litchies? Are you pruning them to keep from turning into giants, or is that the idea?
    Having the odd native shrub, callistemon or grevillea or whatever spread through your food forest will attract nectar feeding birds, who also eat a lot of insects. They will also do their bird droppings etc, which improves the fertility of your trees and so on...
     
  7. forest

    forest Junior Member

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    I think comfrey would make a really good mulch and planted around the drip line, as Richard suggests, sounds like a sensible way to go, as comfrey is a deep rooted plant. It does grow really well up here too. Another way to go would be to use macadamia shells as a mulch. They last for yonks but will eventually break down. Or you could use a combination of the two - comfrey out from the drip line and macadamia shells within that circle.
     
  8. biofarmag

    biofarmag Junior Member

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    I'm going to have one last try at posting something on this forum. If I hear ONE more thing about roundup or disrespect to rastafarians, I'll certainly leave and I won't come back. I've been rudely asked "Why am I here?" by those who felt offended by me having differing viewpoints. Well, I'll tell you: I'm an agricultural consultant, university-trained in horticulture and soil science. Sustainable soil and crop management is my passion. It's more than just a job for me. I also like helping people. It's personally satisfying, and it keeps my mind and instincts sharp. I don't do as much straight "consulting" and problem-solving these days as I used to, and I miss it. If you can accept that I have a different set of values, and that somebody can have no desire to do a permaculture course and yet still be an OK kinda person, then you might even find me occasionally useful to have around. I have no particular interest in shit-stirring, and it's never been my intention. Quite the contrary, I have a fairly thin skin and don't see the purpose or the fun in it at all. Please try some tolerance instead.

    Now.....onto the issue here. I had a quick look at the forum this morning whilst answering a PM, and saw this posting. Despite my reluctance to enter the lion-pit again, I find it hard not to offer something useful.

    Firstly, on the topic of LIME, I suspect there is different terminology used overseas and in Australia. And I therefore suspect that what we call QUICKLIME, which is Calcium Oxide, is called "LIME" in America. This may well be a organically non-certified product. It would not surprise me, as it's fairly harsh in its action. What I was referring to, that which we commonly call "Lime" in Australia, is Calcium Carbonate, which is crushed-up limestone and most certainly "approved". What I recommended to RF was a 5-micron grade.

    Now, we have many soils in Australia which are high in magnesium. This leads to potassium deficiency and a weak clay structure, similar to the effects of sodicity (excessive exchangeable SODIUM). Based on experience with the type of soil RF has, I'd be very surprised if magnesium (and possibly sodium) are not high. Dolomite would not be appropriate, as it would add unwanted magnesium into the equation. The problem is low calcium, therefore calcium is required.

    The reason for the choice of 5-micron lime? There are 1000 microns in a millimeter, so you can gather that 5 microns is pretty damned small. In order for the calcium to be useful, it needs to be reduced from calcium carbonate into Ca++ (free calcium cations). This takes weathering and microbial action. The smaller it is, the quicker this process. Standard lime may be anything from 250 microns to 2mm. This can take 6 months to several years to take effect, thus the choice of the finer product. Getting the calcium levels in balance will improve the strength of soil structure, allow for greater availability of all elements, and provide a calcium source for microbial life. Many many benefits.

    On the topic of living mulches, whilst this does no harm (and plenty of good) in the interrow, you'd do better not to have anything growing in the trunk-to-dripline area. This is where the feeder roots of the trees are. Trees like citrus (or lychees for that matter) are not the most efficient scroungers for nutrients and water as are the simpler plants. Grasses, and even legumes, can rob the trees of water and nutrients that they need. They can and they will! Grow in the interrows, by all means. But it's much better to heap mulch (non-living) under the trees and give them a chance.

    The comments re. pumpkins was this: They're 99% water. What's left behind isn't very much. There appears to be plenty of leaf and stem on the surface, but once its died and dried, there's not much left. And given that they're widely-spaced, you don't get much root activity compared with, say, a forage crop. And whilst l'd support the idea of legumes in the interrow, the benefit from a bit of N under the trees (if you grew them there) would be considerably less than the loss caused by water and nutrient stressing the trees. Grow 'em in the interrow. Slash 'em, and direct the mulch under the trees. Works much better.
     
  9. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Bio, defining "Lime" in the U.S. isn't that easy. Depending on the area, people call all lime "lime", and often mean something different. "Quicklime" is caustic and as far as I know, is only used for hole-in-the-ground toilets, and disposing of illicit dead (usually human) bodies. "Dolomite lime" is the most common form, and as long as you know that's what a person is referring to, it's usually just shortened to lime. And then there's the fruit....

    On the cover crops, it sounds like you advocate the use of clear, bare ground around crop trees. Personally, I don't see the advantage. Mind you, it's the way it's done here commercially, but when you live in an area of 3 to 6 months of absolutely NO rain, the heat sucks the moisture out of the soil for several feet if you're not irrigating heavily. And if you're on water rationing, you aren't irrigating much. That leaves mulch and cover crops. Granted, there may be some competition near the surface but I suspect that the benefits of cover cropping exceed the loss of moisture. In a perfect world, clean, bare soil may be nice, but I don't live there.

    Sue
     
  10. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    The lychees are still quite small (funny how when I first looked at the place and then went back home I could have sworn they were much taller!), The previous owners didn't plant them, and certainly did nothing, bar watering, to look after them.

    About 75% of the trees are heavily infected with scale insects, I've brought a sprayer and stuff to spray on them. Not very organic to start with, but with such a heavy infestation I feel I have no other choice. Hopefully once I'm on top of it I can stick to home grown sprays. 150 odd trees is a lot to tackle that way up front.

    When the lychees were planted they were planted along strips of black plastic....I'm going to rip this up and mulch heavily around them (increasing the mulched area as the trees grow). Am in the process of trying to get a couple hundred bales of sugar cane mulch (if not more!) 'Macadamia shells as a mulch'....great idea Forest :) There are millions of Macadamias around here...will sus that out!

    I'm starting to see my property not as a self sustaining whole unit but rather as a series of areas that (hopefully) will be self sustaining. I'd like to plan the lychee orchard to be like that.

    I'd prefer not to have to spray the grass to kill it prior to planting cover/mulch crops...though if it turns out that's the only way then so be it.

    My end goal would be to have a border of mulch plants around the orchard, heaps and heaps of mulch under the lychees (thanks Bio, I should have realised this), and different flowers/plants to attract pest predaters. The soil is very loamy. I also did think about pumpkins/watetmelons, but the point of them sucking up all the water is very valid.

    I intend to keep the trees smallish...certainly no more than 3- 4m high. Lychees require netting, so I'm still looking at what types of nets...plus a cool room! Am thinking of building a strawbale cool room...yet something else to look into. (watch for a work party ad! :p)

    I use to want to have geese in the orchard but they need grass to eat. Maybe ducks would be a better option?

    Thanks for your imput everyone....reminded me of things I had thought of but forgotten, and definately brought up some I hadn't thought of!

    Now to start all I have to do is spray, prune and mulch 200+ trees! lol...will keep me out of trouble anyways! :)

    Cheers!

    :)
     
  11. biofarmag

    biofarmag Junior Member

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    Bare soil? No. Not at all. Heavily mulched bare-soil. I've seen living examples of things-growing-under-trees, and heavy mulch. The trees always do better with the mulch, especially in poorly-structured soils with poor water-holding capacity and slow infiltration rates. And keep in mind that there are many forms of "life". Plant life is only one of them. A bare-of-plants, but heavily mulched dripline is going to contain and feed a massive population of bacteria, fungi, actinomycetes and earthworms. It's still "life".

    And Mr Corn, you my want to consider a high-oil fish emulsion as a spray for the scale. The oil is very sticky, and should gum up the "breather-holes". It works with silverleaf whitefly and aphids. Can't see why it wouldn't work with scale. As for the spraying-of-weeds, I'm not touching that one with a 20' pole. Monsanto haven't paid my my royalties cheque this month, and I'm considering going across to Bayer. :wink:
     
  12. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    And the way to go!

    :)
     
  13. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Cornonthecob,

    It's a shame you dont say where you are located but here goes.

    I would be tempted to get hold of 100+ hens, ex-battery hens would do and slash or mow the orchard. Some trained geese would be great but be wary they dont start on the trees.

    The chooks will start around the trees first and clean under them and disrupt the ant/scale/aphids cycle and remove most of the weed competition from close to the trees. The reason I suggest this is because I have seen some of the nicest chook based orchards around Broome & Rural Darwin. The Broome ones used dichondra/lippia as a ground cover.

    Mango & Rambutan orchards around Darwin always attract a lot of magpie geese too.

    I do like Richard's suggestion of a couple of grevillias etc around the place.

    Cheers

    Floot
     
  14. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Corny,

    Arachis pintoy, centrosema and desmodium are all used here on organic citrus farms, both in the rows and directly beneath the citrus. It may be better to do as Jeff suggests, but that is the practice the Citrus Growers Association suggests.

    What they call "lime" in America runs the gammut, but quicklime is also called slaked lime here in Belize, as well as just "lime" and ground up dolominitc limestone is called "dolomite".

    Theres a plane near here that makes dolomite. I use some for what is left of our citrus, as well as for other areas to remineralize the soil or reduce acidity.

    We have used cannavalia, but it needs replanting every year, so are hoping next year to start putting in arachis pintoy.

    Jeff,
    Glad to see you have a sense of humour!

    I wasn't trying to be rude whan I asked. I just was looking for your motivation.I am sorry to have offended you, and I am also sorry for my mean spirited reference to your weight.

    I myself look forward to hearing more about what you think regarding soils. I have always been impressed with your web site.

    Richard, as usual, all good points.


    C
     
  15. biofarmag

    biofarmag Junior Member

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    Chooks under fruit trees? Yeeeks! Mulch spread from one end of the paddock to the other, and scratched-up under-tree areas with diced feeder-roots! Ducks, geese.....ANYTHING but chooks! The point about the ants....very true. I thought about it later. Ants and aphids (OR scale) go hand-in-hand (or antenii-in-antenii?). Ants harvest the scale like a dairy herd. The scale feed on the sap, and send out a steady flow of sweet "honeydew" (scale shit!), which the ants feed on. In return, they guard the scale insects from predators. The oily fish will help......but you need to get rid of the ants. Have a look, and they'll be there. Organic methods? Borax? Is that considered "organic"? DON'T go putting grease and whathaveyou on the trunks, or you'll ringbark them!
     
  16. forest

    forest Junior Member

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    borax applied directly to the soil will kill plants. It's fine in a container with some sugar to attract the ants though. Cinnamon is a good way of getting rid of ants in the garden, you can sprinkle it onto the ground.

    Corn, I suspect that as you build up the organic matter and nutrients in your soil you'll have less of a problem with ants. Remember they hate water too so dousing the area with water a few time might do some good.
     
  17. biofarmag

    biofarmag Junior Member

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    Meant more of a case of applying to the entrances of the ants nests than broadcasting. Borax is Sodium Borate. In measured doses, it's a source of Boron.....an essential plant nutrient. It can be easily overdone and can lead to boron toxicity without due care.
     
  18. forest

    forest Junior Member

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    You're correct, Bio, but the difference between the toxic level of boron and what a plant requires is very small, so it's best not to use it on the soil near plants.
     
  19. Franceyne

    Franceyne Junior Member

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    Really? I'm going to try that - the ants keep on stealing all my carrot seeds :( I'm willing to share - they are not :lol:
     
  20. heuristics

    heuristics Junior Member

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    Living mulch

    Yeah, we did it – a fantastic post – to my mind, all the very best ingredients of a functioning permie post. Yippeee team!!!!
     

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