Let's get radical,as long as it works who gives a shit!?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by PULSE, Jun 19, 2006.

  1. PULSE

    PULSE Junior Member

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    Alright then Permies!
    I seen some bullshit on another post about 'illegal' grey water systems (I can't be bothered to quote 'em).
    My personal opinion is that-:as long as it works don't be waiting for goverment approval. There is plenty information online about how to dispose of your 'waste'.
    Permaculture is about taking responabilty for your self. It's anti authorotarian/establishment, (you can't wait for the idiots).
    I urge all people to re-cycle all of your 'waste' onsite responsibly. This can be done without expensive rota-loos, greywater systems. It is not difficult even in a heavilly built up urban areas.One can't be waiting for the law to change.Get radical,phanatical or wotever you want to call it. Just do it responsibly. Everything ends up in the water table at some point, so just be clever about it,like I say their is plenty of info online flying about.
    Don't wait for the law is all I'm saying.
    P.S. I know my spelling' s terrible,not to mention my punctuation.
    But I know you know what I mean so STFU.
    Peace and Love.
     
  2. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Ill have whatever hes having

    Tezza
     
  3. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    I do agree with your general sentiment there Pulse, but respectfully disagree. Where at all possible it is better to work within the framework of existing statutes and bylaws, as this way you are not only less likely to incur the wrath of the establishment and have your projects set back by beauracratic/authoritarian meddling but you are setting an example that more people are likely to follow sooner. So, you might take a little longer to get that greywater system up and running to code, but you will change the way your community at large deals with its greywater a whole lot faster.
    Indeed, but choosing to fuck the man, and build an illlegal greywater system in your own backyard, you are potentially putting people off trying to do it "properly" as the negative feedback will be widely felt. Do you know what I mean?
    Besides, there are actually good reasons for most of the laws regarding these things, ie disease.
     
  4. Mike_E_from_NZ

    Mike_E_from_NZ Junior Member

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    I can see where you are coming from Richard. However Pulse is coming from a different mindspace. Ran Prieur illustrates this point of view brilliantly in his blog https://ranprieur.com/index.html of June 16th. He is talking about the urban farm in LA.

    The point he makes is that the forces that control our political system are not misguided. They are pathological.

    Ran goes on to say

    Now, he is talking about food. But he could be talking about grey water.

    Be discrete, be responsible, be clever. And don't get caught.

    Mike
     
  5. naturally inspired

    naturally inspired Junior Member

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    one of my friends found a good way to get around the council not liking what he is doing. he has declared is farm a permaculture RESEARCH and education centre. then when ever they come and whinge about something he is doing he's like "ah thats research mate!"
     
  6. heuristics

    heuristics Junior Member

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    ooohh, I Love that - research - must remember THAT one. very useful


    and BTW is it me, but i find myself agreeing equally with both points of view in this argument .... my brain now hurts...

    another BTW, my toilet has been broken for 2 weeks now.... I simply havent had the time to spare to do the BS dance with the plumber about if and when he could be bothered to show up and charge me a lot for the priviledge.

    I have now been forced to discover the joys of an outdoor self-constructed loo, and you know what, that early morning sit on the tin can is quite invigorating. and the view is glorious. a vista of 3kms all with morning mist and frost on the ground ....

    My compost pile is right to hand, and the "system" all works beautifully.

    ....... and it seems my old dad was right - put something in the shed for 40 or 50 years and eventually "it'll come in handy".... I have revived the old tin dunny from the ancient days when everyone's "business" was done in the outdoor loo and collected by the night soil man.

    everything old is new again. !
     
  7. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Sounds Like you have a crappy veiw there Heretic


    Tezza
     
  8. Jim Bob

    Jim Bob Junior Member

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    There are good reasons for some of the laws and bylaws, so be very sure of what you're doing. If you end up pouring stinky faeces and urine mixed with chlorine bleach and detergent into my backyard because you didn't know how to set up your pipes and pumps properly, then I am going to be rather unhappy with you.

    Many of the laws assume that you are some kind of idiot who doesn't know what he's doing. This is just the nature of the law. Just because no rational intelligent person would do some particular thing, does not mean we don't need a law preventing it. Otherwise we wouldn't need laws against, for example, putting your car in the middle of the train tracks while the warning lights are flashing.

    Maybe you are an extremely rational, sensible, intelligent person who researches everything more thoroughly than CSIRO before even turning on a tap. I don't know. But the law is there to deal with the sort of people who drive their cars onto train tracks, or "surf" the tops of trains, or sniff petrol, or get drunk and operate heavy machinery, or light a match to see if there's a gas leak.

    I have worked in factories, and seen people do patently stupid things, like using the tines of a forklift as a person-lift, three metres above a concrete floor, better not slip! They put heavy machinery on non-load-bearing roofs of canteens. They operated hundred-tonne metal guillotines which could cut through half an inch of steel... without a hand guard. Pieces of sheet steel six metres long and two wide, weighing half a tonne, were lifted on by a fork whose tines covered 1 metre by 1.5 metres, when the fork itself weighed one tonne. A worker came in at 7am, went home for a "rest" at 4:30pm, then had to come back and work from 11pm to 4am.

    Whenever I questioned this stuff, pointing out that it was against regulations and laws, I was told, "well those rules are stupid and we know what we're doing."

    I also knew a bloke who never obeyed the road rules. He said, "the road rules are designed to protect bad drivers. I'm a good driver, so I don't have to follow the road rules." He has had since then three crashes, two with other vehicles and one where he rolled the car off the road. No fatalities have been involved, where is sheer bloody luck.

    So I am a little bit sceptical when someone tells me that he knows better than anyone with their regulations.

    Assuming you're the sensible person, and that the laws are all stupid... I would urge caution. I see nothing morally wrong with breaking a stupid or immoral law, but... there is no sense getting a whole system up and running just to have some council goons come around with the cops and smash it up.

    The problem with the laws and regulations we have is not really that the rules themselves are stupid; most of them are good. It's that the whole process is so bloody slow... There's a saying that if Columbus had had to wait for a committee to give him budgetary approval for his mission, he'd still be in Spain.
     
  9. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    Hey Jim Bob, I've seen some of the things you've described, and some of the ensuing bloodshed. Famous last words: "It's only a safety thing, it's not important." :?

    I reckon that Permaculture is based very sound research. If anyone wants to put in a system that fits in with permaculture ethics, it should be similarly well-founded. Even if you're running a "research centre", you'll be basing your experiments on prior knowledge, and keeping tidy notes.

    Council officers are like everyone else, resistant to new ideas. And they tend to support "inovations" that come only from corporate salesmen. Any application for an "unknown system", properly submitted, should be backed up with examples of systems that have been approved by other councils, or at least with historical precedents from other parts of the world, or even ancient history, if it comes to that.

    Sometimes it's hard work, but worthwhile, since getting your system approved will make it easier for someone else to use it elsewhere.

    Only when you are absolutely convinced you are right, and all the rational arguments, engineering reports, schmoozing, liasing, smooth-talking and pocket-pissing fails, should you go ahead and do it anyway, to prove them wrong.

    Dodgey, half-baked systems, poorly set up, won't impress anyone.

    Find the boundaries, then push hard, I reckon. And always have fun! :lol:
     
  10. Boab

    Boab Junior Member

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    Tell that to the very well off lawyers who make a living prosecuting people who think only of themselves and make life hell for their neighbours with systems that are illegal for a bloody good reason. Half the problems associated with pollution in our environment can be directly attributed to this appalling "she'll be right" attitude. It's not enough to have something work. It's got to work well and it's got to work in a way that benefits all, not just you.

    Actually, it's about caring for other people too.
     
  11. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Pulse, Everyone :)

    Well done, Pulse! Don't wait or blame the government, BE the government.

    Just one little reminder: Make sure that whatever actions you take, that these actions are in the best interests of all. Document all that you do, and the reasons for why you do it. For if the actions you take should prove to be non-beneficial to yourself or others, then this way you can at least learn from your mistakes.

    Be responsible (for your own actions), and those around you will (eventually) become responsible too.

    Cheerio,

    Mark.
     

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