Julia's New Carbon Price

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by eco4560, Feb 24, 2011.

  1. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    Hi all, just had a thought.
    To promote cleaner and greener living we (i mean society and the government) can either praise the good or punish the bad and from what i have seen praising the good doesn't last, the solar rebate is dissapearing, LPG rebates mostly gone, etc.
    Rostered sprinkler days work but mostly because of the associated fine (punishment). We have seen green business assistance come and go but i think punishment works better than reward (which kinda sucks).
    If people really want change we are going to have to get the whip out.
     
  2. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    A bit like speeding fines, parking fines, etc. It doesn't slow everyone down but for the avoidance of a speeding fine or parking ticket, most people stick generally to the limit and try to rush to the parking meter before it runs out. It would be nice to think people are driving slow out of the goodness of their heart or rushing back to a parking spot to let someone else in, but to be frank, we humans are selfish pricks... hit us where it hurts and we tend to listen... Money is currently the kicker that everyone sits up and listens to...
     
  3. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Australia's Carbon Tax

    A very clear, concise, succinct and accurate summary and explanation.
    The fact that it is also bizarre is probably just a bonus for comedians.
    [video=youtube;zVbQMIl4JnE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVbQMIl4JnE&feature=feedu[/video]
     
  4. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    So true its almost not funny. Did you ever see the Hollowmen? - having worked for the public service, for me, it had the same hilarious truth to it.
     
  5. Earthwizz

    Earthwizz Junior Member

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    Carbon trading will be by carbon credits through carbon exchanges which will charge a commission on every trade. The credits will bre provided by another institution which will produce them when needed, at interest and out of thin air, much the same way central banks produce our money. Al Gore has interests in just such an institution and his mates run the Chicago Carbon Exchange. Ross Garnaut has (or had) major interests in profoundly polluting gold mining. His economic skills are totally in the service of business as usual. Carbon trading is a brilliant scam with an awesome strategy; believe us or you're an environmental vandal. It also diverts attention from the real problem.
    My personal view leans towards anthropogenic climate change caused by deforestation and the massive loss of biodiversity of the last few thousand years. We are in the middle of the 6th, and largest, mass species extinction event in the history of life on earth and we did it.
    We permies are on the right track; reforestation. In my experience (seriously grey hair) in a very short time reforestation radically improves biodiversity and, guess what, can deal with any carbon imbalance.
     
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day earthwizz,

    yep that's the real deal but they don't want to hear that because there is no money in it, no career and no power grabbing. ie.,. nothing for profit rakers being helped by inept government. puts and end to the climate change they want us to know about, that is the pie in the sky one that has no tangable history or support.

    like the vid' clip above again the truth oft being represented in humour. except that at the end of the day if all this stuff occurs it isn't going to be that funny is it? it will be just more of man's inhumanity to man, the ruling classes steamrollering the masses.

    len
     
  7. Earthwizz

    Earthwizz Junior Member

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    It's not a problem Len. We don't have to tell them. 'Business as usual' may have inertia on its side but that's no substitute for intelligence. Environmental awareness and our response to it is the intelligent thing to do and that's what we have on our side, growing daily. What's more, sustainable practice makes better, real world, economic sense. Powerful innit?
    I've just posted on 'introduce yourself' with an idea. Hope you like it.
     
  8. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Carbon trading is not a part of the initial introduction of a carbon price.

    If not a carbon price, what else would provide the financial incentive for business to change to renewable energy ?

    Business is not likely to change to Renewable options while so much profit is available with coal and oil.

    At the moment Carbon has no value so we can waste it as much as we want - who cares about the consequences. With a price on carbon, wasting it would be like throwing hundred dollar bills out the window while driving down the highway.

    Isn't the introduction of the carbon price to develop a basis to work out how to set trading credits - so as to not pull them out of thin air. I think it works so the larger the carbon footprint the fewer trading credits handed out. The smaller the carbon footprint the more credits.

    The incentive is to have more credits (therefore a smaller carbon footprint) which can be traded for the right to release more carbon by those who insist on maintaining their current operations. In the end it will be more profitable to have a smaller carbon footprint...
     
  9. Earthwizz

    Earthwizz Junior Member

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    That's right but it is the intention and, for me, the focus on carbon emissions distracts from the real problem of deforestation. We don't need to, reforestation deals with carbon emissions.
     
  10. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Of course it does... But then what slows down the consumption of oil and coal...? we have already reached the peak of both and they are heading downhill fast. A carbon price is the incentive to change before we run out altogether and end up having more wars for the rights to access the precious little there will be left!
     
  11. Earthwizz

    Earthwizz Junior Member

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    I hear what you're saying and you're absolutely right; burning fossil fuels has to cease, they're far too valuable for that. I'm deeply suspicious that the whole carbon emissions and trading scam will have us subsidising the @#$^%&(*&^'s to keep polluting and that means there must be another solution.
    The growth of environmental awareness was exponential, doubling over ever decreasing intervals. Remember how it all seemed to happen at once? At one election hardly any pollies were enviro concerned and, at the next, they all were. The response to that awareness is growing exponentially too and its doubling phase is much more advanced than the awareness was 30yrs ago. Because sustainable practice makes better economic sense we'll probably render 'business as usual' redundant within the next 30yrs.
     
  12. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    I doubt politicians became Environmentally conscious overnight... more likely they realised the mindset of their electorate and realised the greens were becoming a legitimate part of the process. If the mainstream politicians display a little more "Green" those swinging in the Green direction are more likely to stay with them - that doesn't make them environmentally aware that just means they know how to play politics!

    Even if Politicians were beginning to green up a bit that doesn't stop the greed from private business who will do anything to continue making millions from dieing resources like Coal & Oil. Hit these businesses where it hurts, the bank balance and compensate individuals for any financial backlash added as a result.
     
  13. Earthwizz

    Earthwizz Junior Member

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    I didn't mean to imply pollies were more aware, only that they were sounding more aware. They had to, their electorates were.
    Fossil fuels have their own demise built in. every time there is a spike in petrol prices the development of alternative transport takes a huge leap forward. 'Business as usual' is walking a tightrope; how much it can gouge the public without stimulating the alternative too much. It's on a losing battle, the alternative has no such tightrope and every day it becomes more economically viable. There's an idea towards speeding it up posted on 'Introduce yourself'. Hope you like it
     
  14. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    So, when petrol prices go up we all suffer for it, the Oil company's profit more and the little people (thats us) have to suffer as a result with higher fuel costs.

    At least with a Carbon Tax, big business pays and the little people (thats still us) are compensated at the consumer level. A much fairer scenario than everyone paying a higher price for fuel (without compensation) with the only benefit being a spike in the interest in renewable energies.
     
  15. Earthwizz

    Earthwizz Junior Member

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    The myth is that big business pays and us little people are compensated. The reality is big business, which already enjoys sizable subsidies, will be compensated out of the public purse. That's us little people subsidising big business. I don't think there is need for dispute when addressing deforestation solves any carbon problem. Don't underestimate that spike in interest in renewables and alternative transport. The growth is exponential, in the next very few years you will have the technology available to never buy petrol again. I already have it. I love sailing silently past petrol stations and you will too.
     
  16. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    We'll have to wait for the package to be released to know that for sure!

    Yes the technology is available... but it doesn't create millionaires like Oil does... Money rules the world remember!
     
  17. Earthwizz

    Earthwizz Junior Member

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    My idea is for sustainable practice and reforesting the planet to become 'the money', or rather, the dominant economy. Check it out, hope you like it
     
  18. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    A lot of people don't put much stock in large areas of forest, it would be great if they had the added value of being a profitable carbon sink simply by existing.
     
  19. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    they are already a carbon sink, and taking them away takes away more than their capabilties in that area, they are also cloud forest, apart from being large biodiversity for flaura and fauna. not a nuisance as was seen the malay jungle that they so magnificiently truned into proton city. profiting will come under the carbon trading which is nothing in real termajust numbers on paper, that turns into extra costs to the low end user, who lots seem to want to blame for the woes of the world, jsut so much fluff it is amazing how many worship it, selling the benefits of something that has been working as a local benefit for decades or more.

    it's not the people to blamsfor the lack of respect for the natural above profit, lets get that right, the masses get led around like lambs too easy realy they are at the lower socio economic end of life and have difficulties just making it through each day, most of them have little opportunity to own a modest home (if you could buy a modest home that is), everything they do in their lives is the cause of indoctrination by the string pullers. lets put the blame where it belongs with government and developers/profit rakers, and now they want us to trust them to fix it hey? too silly for words realy.

    len
     
  20. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Sorry Len but i believe it is a consumers responsibility as much as if not in some cases more. Fair enough there are the 1 in 100 or so Permaculturalists who are doing it right, who shouldn't really be effected by the Carbon Tax any way...

    The 99 in 100 however, who do buy the polluters energy (and typically waste it), feeding the businesses greed while producing a larger carbon footprint will finally have their brakes put on. These are typically the ones who will not be compensated or compensated less - due to income.

    Reports recently that a Carbon price of $30 per tonne would likely see an increase of $800 or so P.A in the average household budget. Local reports said using the same figures that would likely be around $500 or so for Tasmanian's due largely to the fact we have Hydro & Wind power.

    That example on its own shows its about getting businesses to produce cleaner energy, renewable energy for cars etc,

    On a similar topic, I still reckon a battery powered car could maintain constant electricity flow if the wheels of the car were converted to drive generators to keep battery packs charged while the car is in motion (think large scale dynamo using modern technology)... Of all the attempts to make electric cars, i have never seen any trials on that. Even a scoop under the body of the car directing air to a turbine could power a wind generator without pulling on the drive of the car... Simple things that on their own would not produce the necessary power but working together could...
     

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