Julia's New Carbon Price

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by eco4560, Feb 24, 2011.

  1. Glenn18

    Glenn18 Junior Member

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    Juilia's new Carbon Price

    Tegs,this has me thinking..

    Australia is a technology advanced nation with large money making exports and a high standard of living, I can't see any reason for Australia not to join other smart developed countries in reducing our carbon/chemical foot print.

    Define our biggest 3 exports please.
    What other SMART developed countries are ACTUALLY buying into this carbon/chemical footprint Ideology??,There are a few but,none that are advocating a carbon tax!

    Dillard has us going it alone to the detrement of our export capabilities(The big 3)to other countries that wont have a carbon tax,so who are we actually "Joining" in this venture??Concrete facts would be nice.
     
  2. Tegs

    Tegs Junior Member

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    Bazman made the comment, I was simply agreeing.

    As far as I am aware our biggest exports are our dirty coal and other mining resources followed by beef and food (things, in my opinion we shouldn't be exporting in the first place).

    Are we all just sheep, must we wait for someone else to do something before we can implement it? If all the countries of the world sat around starring each other down until someone else made the first move there would be nothing left worth saving! IMHO
     
  3. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    so getting rid of our less than 2% total world imput will make that much difference? i asked earlier what difference swedens 9% made to the world, to me take 9% away from 100% = 91% left in the atmosphere, so take out say 1% from australia and you have 90% left, real encouraging hey?

    len
     
  4. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    But what happens if this tax drives smart thinking business and people to develop world leading clean emission technologies, which when applied to countries like china can and will make a big difference, Australia is a major power when it comes to engineering design, we have many smart people who if given the chance to make change will.
     
  5. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Well said Bazman...
     
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    won't hold me breathe baz.

    lots more hypothetical just like the people who promote this carbon c/c thing, speculation and calculated guessing.

    if what is suggested might happen then lets see the plans for it. bit like buying a new idea tv without ever seeing it work.

    len
     
  7. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    I will have to admit that is an impressive list of names but i would like to know what records have been broken in Australia in the last 10 years... cyclones travelling further, warmer winters, dryer summers, bigger floods, longer droughts, every few years i used to be able to go snowboarding in Victoria at Christmas time in 1980s - i don't think that will happen again, water temperatures at he mouth of the Derwnt river (Tas) are getting really nice... I know there are arguments either way and the "climate gate" fiasco is pretty damning to some of the research done, but in Perth crops are failing and the dams are drying up. So go figure.
     
  8. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    I have not earned an income for the last 18 months, why? because I decided to make a difference, to work with a small group of very smart people to develop a carbon negative product that has many positive roll on effects for our environment. I'm now working with one of the most advanced continuous flow pyrolysis systems in the world. This would not have happened if I didn't decide to get off my ass and do something proactive. Just like our technology, emission scrubbing has many other positive roll on effects, like removing or reducing emitted chemicals other than C02 and industry developing more efficient energy and process design. A lot of this technology is already being developed in Australia, a well thought out pollution tax is one way to help fund and develop these systems.

    I think it is possible that this pollution tax could do a lot of long term good, but I'm also nervous about how it's implemented, as I'm unsure if what they are proposing will further positive technologies.
     
  9. matto

    matto Junior Member

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  10. matto

    matto Junior Member

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    Would be great if the farmers were subsidised. Farmers in far north QLD are getting paid 1cent /L. Interesting show of what I caught on https://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2010/s3156366.htm Dairy Dilemma

    And Grahame, cows will ulimately be necessary to heal our grazing areas and reduce our legacy load of emmisions. Even Peter Andrews looks into using dairies to heal the Murray catchment. At least its easier to be regenerative than our grain industries are. Great read by Darren Doherty https://regenag.blogspot.com/2010/10/off-contour-2-livestock-veganosphere.html
    And we can stack rotational grazing with free range chickens to combat the insane cruelty in the bird industry too!
     
  11. Glenn18

    Glenn18 Junior Member

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    Springtide the records I was talking about are in the northern hemisphere,please consider...If we were traveling into an iceage would it not have a point of refference,it's not like you wake up one morning and the whole planet is covered in ice.There is more land surface in the northern hemi which would make cc more noticable.I agree about the weather here in Oz being a tad out of wack with my thoughts on cc,but then again we are the second driest continent on the planet,second only to Antarctica and with a LOT less ice to start with.We broke a few heat records in Oz this yr but,they were for a given day in a given mth and not a real indicater to substantiate a GW'ing trend.
    I know I sound arogant but in reallity I'm not,just a bit over passionate.
    Have to go do some work on our bit of utopia but will get some mean temp graphs for Oz up soon.
     
  12. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Personally I feel the concept of Drastic Sea Level Rises and Frozen continent shifts are a bit far fetched... certainly in my or my kids lifetimes... perhaps gradual rises in sea levels by the time my grandkids are parents - and my kids have just reached double figures.

    More important factors for immediate concern are extremes of hot and cold as weather patterns become disrupted, more frequent and more severe storms and cyclone events around the world, changes in growth patterns of plants, illness associated with extremes in temperature on both ends of the scale etc,

    These are the types of immediate events we have to deal with. The larger harder to believe catastrophic events are in the making and one of the reasons we see the negativity and lack of belief from posters here as well as in the media etc is because they are so far away (though potentially closer than we think).

    We have to stop thinking in a reactive, after the fact way and start thinking in a preventative, no reason for it to happen in the first place way... IMO!
     
  13. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    If last year we had the driest winter and the longest (and most uncomfortable) heat trough - 3 weeks in a row of 25+ night time temperatures for summer, cyclones travelling further south and there is cold weather in the northern hemisphere... does anyone know what is happening with the gulf stream currents?
    I don't know the full science but this is the scenario i read about 15 years ago at uni. It is partial ignorance but it makes sense to me.
     
  14. Glenn18

    Glenn18 Junior Member

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    Eric,can I call you Eric?..
    "We have to stop thinking in a reactive, after the fact way and start thinking in a preventative, no reason for it to happen in the first place way... IMO!"

    That really dosen't figure.The planet is way to big and well in tune with it'self for us to think preventative,if it's gonna happen then we haven't really a say on a global outlook.The dinosaures didn't win much did they.They died,we will die and the planet will just go on spinning around with no thought to what we may think or imagine to be the reallity of it all.Humans are not really smart,some are smarter but in reallity it's all an illusion at the end of the day.We are all born into a point in time,Martin Luther king,Gandi,Einestien...the list is endless,some placid some smart.Seriously,if the problem is as big as some would have us all believe,if in fact it was even what they assume to be the problem...Humans arn't smart enough to deal with it.One thing is for sure,In the bible it says to go out and multiply,shit that was a wrong call..LOL.

    Springtide,just knowing about the gulfstream currents puts you way ahead of the general population IMHO.Ithink it is all connected,probably why the scientists seem to quibble so much.One is an astro something,the other is a geologist ,bugger even the astrologists are getting their 2cents worth of ear time.Understanding that makes it even easier to reason that the whole story could be so easily manipulated to an eventual concensus.First they had Global warming(That was shot down),now the same drive..differen't spiel..Climate change.But the same thing is the answer,well,thats what they would have us believe anyway.Tax,Tax,Tax.All this from "The smart sector",you know..The ones we elect to look after things for us..LOL.

    One might be better off buying a parker rather then a pair of shorts and a tank top.
    Yeah I know...synical.
     
  15. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    So you don't believe in preventative measures ?

    Yes, we all end up in a big pile of death, but that doesn't mean we don't live full healthy lives while we are here.

    When clearing trees along a bank in an Asian country, a decision was made to leave a small part of the trees where a small community lived in a gully below, some smart arse said it would prevent landslides from destroying the village. 3 years later a land/mud slide wiped out all but a small section along that bank...

    Sexual health experts recommend the use of condoms to prevent (there is that word again) disease, unwanted pregnancies etc. Do you disagree?

    We can prevent soil erosion by avoiding tilling on steep slopes or by adding swales or strategic straw placements along the bank...

    If you want to prevent collar rot don't mulch too close to plants

    If you want to prevent dehydration drink a glass of water...

    If you want to prevent Death... Practice living!
     
  16. matto

    matto Junior Member

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    Hey Glenn,
    Thats great thinking tomaintain the status quo, and keep the frogs sitting in the pot of water as it comes to the boil. Last time I looked, David Holmgren was talking about Permaculture activists, not slcktivists.
    And your comment insults my amazing visionaries such as PA Yeomans, Allan Savoury, Peter Andrews and Colin Seis who have demonstrated that you can build carbon in soils quickly. It also flys in the face of the philosophies and results seen in the work of Mansanobu Fukuoka, Darren Doherty, Paul Taylor and countless other farmers that are seeing the benefits of pulling the excess CO2 out of the air andputting it into the ground.
    Humour us, and get to work proving that the legacy load of carbon emmissions has no effect on the planets weather systems by implementing what is already known to be good alternative management of our land. See if Allan Yeomans is wrong in saying that increasing the organic matter in agricultural soils by 1.6% will offset the CO2 in the atmosphere.
    and while you are at it, go back to chapter 1 of you permaculture principals and re-read the ethics.
     
  17. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    just read those ethics matto,

    they could be interpreted to suit anyones political or belief agenda ie.,. carbon climate change belief. all the other factors you allude to just point to what we already know, that is how we manage our environment, that comes back to planting habitat instead of windmills, plant habitat instead of carbon taxes and carbon trading. got to watch, actavists can get very dogmatic, and tunnel visioned. if we are to look after the planet better, we need moderate common sense thinking and sensible actions, not fear hype.

    so this climate change beleif is the one that flies in the face of all those philosophies you mentioned, i've said it before unless permaculture comes back to the grass roots it won't attract the interest of masses, and it is the masses who will bring change.

    len
     
  18. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    What grass roots specifically, Len ?
     
  19. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    The masses follow they dont lead and they follow the path of least resistance.
    High petrol (diesel prices) and its associated economic consequences will bring the masses into line,because it will have an immediate instant measurable hip pocket impact.(I see it as a mega Carbon Tax that will drive organics and clean energy but without the compensation)
    Climate change is too slow acting and complex to be understood or measured by the average person in a day to day context.
    A Carbon Tax has an instant artificial financial impact that will require a change in investment,practice and attitude.
    If properly administered it will drive clean jobs and destroy dirty ones while compensating the most vulnerable.
    Those who acts early have a better chance to reposition its economy and prepare for an inevitable high oil priced future.
    ...........and yes their will be some pain, but long term its the best thing just needs to be sold to people who are conditioned to be selfish,greedy and short sighted (which is the hardest bit).
     
  20. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    eric,

    grassroots means the everyday mortals in the masses, it is starting at basic, maybe do some research on grassroots as a process? put simply permacultue has no grassroots appeal. teh only appeal it may engender is through fringe political affiliation, or they may pick up some dregs from a punishment system like the carbon system.

    this is the best i could find in a quick search:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grassroots

    more links for you eric:

    https://www.thefreedictionary.com/grass+roots

    another way i see it; of the people, for the people, by the people: what do we get; of the people, not for the people, and not by the people.

    len
     

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