Julia's New Carbon Price

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by eco4560, Feb 24, 2011.

  1. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    So is it a good idea? The media seem a bit confused - I heard one reporter asking what compensation was going to be handed out so that people could continue to buy power / petrol. Isn't the point of a price on carbon to get people to buy less?

    Ecodharmark - are you up on the issue?

    Have / are other countries doing this and is it working for them?

    Should agriculture be excluded as it is?

    Apologies to the non-Aussies who won't be familiar with the daily workings of our political system!
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    big con' job it will look after the mega wealthy who can always buy everything in their minds at least, the masses the poor how does one expect them to buy any less than they already do, this tax will be not work. why should aussies be the only country to feel pain when korea, china and other asian countries won't be in on the deal and will continue to buy our coal and natural gas to provide affordable power for their people.


    https://tucsoncitizen.com/wryheat/2011/02/02/climate-model-projections-vs-real-world-observations/


    https://www.co2science.org/education/reports/prudentpath/prudentpath.pdf

    len
     
  3. Dreamie

    Dreamie Junior Member

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    This and an ETS is just a way to transfer more money and wealth from the workers into the hands of the Elites, just another way to ensure that you spend 10+ hours per day and trying to go forward but end up going nowhere.

    /rant on

    Just a way to tighten the chains of feudalism and push the majority further into slavery.

    The Governments and Bankers of this world must love the current situation, they basically have slaves that don’t realise they are slaves and therefore work harder than the slaves of old in the hope of moving up the ladder but the harder the work the deeper into slavery they go. However unlike slave masters of old they don’t need to worry about giving them food or water or shelter as the people do this themselves and if the people can’t find shelter it is not a concern of the master but a concern of the slave.

    People argue that we are wealthier than we have ever been and freer than we have ever been but just stop and think how long can a single person can really survive without going to work to earn money to pay the slave master? Are we able to find a piece of land and set up our lives and live in a self sufficient manor? No because to buy land we need to go into debt and to put a house on that land requires debt as well and to pay the debt requires you to earn an income.
     
  4. Tegs

    Tegs Junior Member

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    I think you just answered your own question. "OUR coal" and "OUR natural gas". As long as we are willing to sell these fossil fuels there will always be someone eager to buy them. We as a country have to shoulder our share of the responsibility for the pollution they cause.
     
  5. geoff

    geoff Junior Member

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    Wealth is only transferred into the hands of the elites because we keep buying the rubbish they're selling.
     
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    so you think it is ok for australian to not be able to afford power, fuel food and water??

    what pollution the only evidence presented is fromself appointed models of the science community, there was no such thing as climate change until about the very late 1900 until it became a fad on the world stage, in 1991 when rockhampton flooded, 1974 when brissy flooded, when darwin was consumed by tracey, in 1918 when again rockhampton had its biggest ever flood.

    the taxes will only deliver hardship they will not fix anything, the US, brazil and at least australia will still continue to mine coal if we don't someone will buy the rights just like the japs did when they bought that central qld grazing property for a coal mine. science still can't say how much all this furphy will cost, they can't say for how long it will be? it is all a scientific calculated guess an assumption.

    our coal our gas should be used to keep all of the above affordable, and as we are less than 2% contributors to this world assumption let the big boys do their bit first, our less than 2% will bebut a drop in the ocean.

    could weplease identify this rubbish that has been mentioned, our main purchases are necessities of life eg.,. food etc.,.

    len
     
  7. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Eco, and All

    As a general answer to all of your questions, Eco, it's too early to tell. The proposed Carbon Price Mechanism paper that was released by the Multi-Party Climate Change Committee (MPCCC) yesterday is very vague, and really only acts as a primer for further discussion, much the same as what we are engaging in right now!

    What is interesting to note at present, is that Australian economist Ross Garnaut has been 'pulled from the bench' (sorry folks, Aussie football term), and is now once again starring in the 'forward line' along with other key members of the MPCCC, such as Tim Flannery, and all are set to start 'kicking a few carbon-assed goals'.

    Seriously folks, for those that have an interest in this matter, may I direct your reading to the latest (2011 updated) pages of the Garnaut Revew, for it is here where you will see the genesis of the Australian carbon price mechanism, and it is also here where you can follow its journey as it breaks forth into unchartered Australian (indeed, global) territories.

    What do I think? I've said it before, and I'll say it again; a properly adminsitered carbon tax makes sense. Taxing the 'rich' and subsidising the 'poor' as we all make the transition to a low carbon future can only ever make sense. Sure, the efficacy of such a program can only ever be judged by the number of people who get 'hurt' along the way, but I believe that if (and this is the big 'if') administered fairly, the carbon pricing mechanism that could emerge out of Australia may become the model for all other global players to follow.

    In sum, all I can really add is that if you are interested in this topic, then you could do a lot worse than read very carefully the reports that Ross Garnaut will be releasing throughout the first quarter of this year, and then watch to see what sort of reconfiguration the Australian government (remembering that the Greens will hold the balance of power in the Senate come July) performs on these policy platforms in order to make the whole deal palatable for the majority. It's all about numbers, my friends. We live in a market economy, and we will most likely die in a market economy. But as to how future generations will need to live, well, the changes we need to make in order for them to survive could very well start right here.

    Oh, and Len, always nice to read from your perspective, my friend. However on this occasion, I think you may find the following of interest:

    Source Watch - Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change

    Cheerio, Markos
     
  8. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yep markos,

    their 1st para' just supports their hyperthetical mathematical calculation, all good indoctrination stuff for those who are believers of it.

    not the date this fad is all very modern isn't it??

    len
     
  9. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    A carbon price may come, a carbon price may go.
    I'll be doing the same thing regardless.
    I've learnt not to get too excited about things like this.
    If something good comes out of it, I will be ready to rejoice.

    Whatever you think of human induced climate change,
    surely you will go on doing your thing
    based on all the other obvious and visible damage our society is doing.
    If the argument for climate change gets people thinking about Earth care and People care
    I have no concern if it is an erroneous one.

    These arguments and discussion become tedious and narrow
    We need widespread recalibration of society based on any number of social issues
    and the answers to these are pretty much the answers to
    environmental issues.

    Greed and hedonism serves no-one
    It is greed and hedonism and all those other unsavoury things we need to deal with and
    then climate change, hunger, pollution and the rest will take care of themselves.

    A carbon price is like putting a band-aid on an open wound. But unless you clean the wound first,
    you are just holding in the source of infection.

    There is soooo much in the Tao Te Ching about governing that I invite you to read it from start to finish here

    There are so many chapters that seem appropriate but here is just a sample...

    If you want to be a great leader,
    you must learn to follow the Tao.
    Stop trying to control.
    Let go of fixed plans and concepts,
    and the world will govern itself.

    The more prohibitions you have,
    the less virtuous people will be.
    The more weapons you have,
    the less secure people will be.
    The more subsidies you have,
    the less self-reliant people will be.

    Therefore the Master says:
    I let go of the law,
    and people become honest.
    I let go of economics,
    and people become prosperous.
    I let go of religion,
    and people become serene.
    I let go of all desire for the common good,
    and the good becomes common as grass.


    I encourage you to read more, with attention. For me when I am feeling overwhelmed or tired I can just return to the Tao Te Ching and find all the answers I need. I wonder if Julia and her cronies have ever read such a thing.
     
  10. John Greenwort

    John Greenwort New Member

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    Why do we all of a sudden need a carbon tax? GST not good enough?

    Groucho Marx also said :"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." add for nevarious purposes?8)

    Groucho Marx said it in the forties: From the moment I picked up your book until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Some day I intend reading it. This is how I feel about global warming and climate change books. :rofl:

    This seems to be the case with carbon tax....
    There is absolutely no need for this tax...It wil screw with every import and export we have and bugger the economy. I may not like Tony Abbott but I absolutely abhor Peculia Julia....:n:
     
  11. John Greenwort

    John Greenwort New Member

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    I guess this says it all!
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." and add for nevarious purposes?


     
  12. Terra

    Terra Moderator

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    This really annoys me , governments have have found something that they can tax to blame the global warming on ( A giant golden goose ) . If they were genuine about reductions polluting industries would already be being phased out to force changes to cleaner technologies . Lets keep giving away our gas and buy in expensive oil now there is a great plan .
     
  13. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Len

    Concerning the above: I do not understand what it is that you are questioning. However, if you would like to reframe your question, I will do my best to answer it for you.

    Cheerio, Markos
     
  14. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    In theory taxing polluters to make it more expensive and the cleaner alternative more affordable is a good solution as long as there are safety nets for the disadvantaged.
    Downside is the tax needs to be high enough to be effective but low enough to be accepted.

    Unfortunately not high enough is always easier to sell.

    The sad fact is subsidies on fossil fuels far outweigh any green subsidies making it hard to compete
    $5 billion goes to mining industry every year in fuel subsidies.
     
  15. adrians

    adrians Junior Member

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    if you are following permaculture principals and therefore have a low carbon footprint, you will pay substantially less carbon tax than others.. be happy.
     
  16. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    you providedthe link markos,

    if you don't undersand it then i have no hope of explaining it to you i'm justvoicing my concerns for those who are less fortunate in australia now and how much more miserable supporters of this are going to make their existances, the simple fact is the link is a lets pat ourselves and worshippers on the back, supplying the same conjecture talk they always use which is "our model this" or "our model that" that, they have no black and white hard copy history of any events. it is pure speculation as the topic says now we will be taxed into oblivion.

    seems like that is what some aspire to.

    and yes why sell our gas cheap to the japs when it could fuel aussie homes and power stations, now that would be something new hey? but alas the science would make no glory or money out of that and there would be no followers. when men and government get into bed corruption follows.

    the more subsidies the less money for health, emergency services etc.,. the gov' simply has no money to look after its own people, but we can be the 5th highest donor on the world stage, when does charity begin at home? people take their health issues to the grave, they are the ones who will hurt the most.

    don't hold your breathe on the carbon footprint saving anyone much people still need food, around here sadly a car is necessary, and modern homes aren't built to save power.

    len
     
  17. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    Len you sound like the typical aussie battling whinger of which there are now so many in the community. I am pretty sure most aussies can afford this easily. I am willing to pay more for my power if that's what it takes to make the environment better and I am one of the poorest members of the community. The thing is we are now paying for the sins of the last century or so, so to speak. We have to suck it up. Don't give me this cr*p story about not being able to afford food until you've been to the poor countries in the world and seen how difficult it is for the majority over there just to get enough to eat.

    On Q&A this monday they were talking about alternative energies. Tim Flannery was on. Even he seems to see that the alternative energies are not enough in themselves to do the deed. For the lack of knowing more myself, i will go along with the likes of Flannery and Bob Brown on the whole. If Bob Brown thinks a carbon tax is a good thing for our environment, then i'm for it in principle. I haven't read the details. I hope to get to around to it sometime soon.
     
  18. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    A Six pack less per week and a pack of ciggies short a fortnight should cover it...

    The compensation model for low income earners is still being worked out. My question is, Will the Carbon Tax to the Greens be like Work Choices to the Liberals ?
     
  19. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    The ironic thing about this to me is that this is posted under 'The Big Picture', and yet, without reference to any posts in particular, the whole thread seems to miss the big picture entirely. Carbon and climate change are not the big picture, they are but parts of the whole. And that is why a carbon tax in isolation will never do anything useful. However, as part of (dare I say it!) a 'raft of measures' :p it might move us in the right direction.
     
  20. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    there is no clear picture that the carbon tax will make anything better, i asked again before and the stalwarts again have no answered how long this expensive fix will take and how muc pain it will inflict on our poor who aren't being looked after that well in this lucky country. so i guess i'm a whinger but then i am not forcing a pie in the sky belief onto the unsuspecting public and the masses are unsuspecting. and aussie starving will help other poor?? doesn't addu like this whole premise.

    so i guess the next reply will enlighten us all as to how this tax is going to fix what?

    len
     

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