Jim's Permaculture, any thoughts?

Discussion in 'Jobs, projects, courses, training, WWOOFing, volun' started by RobWindt, Jul 10, 2007.

  1. RobWindt

    RobWindt Junior Member

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    G'day, I'll be teaching part of an upcoming permaculture design course for the Jim's Mowing franchisees near Melbourne, soon to be Jim's Permaculture, and I've got a half day to cover the theory and prac' of alternative technologies

    The emphasis is on what Jim's franchisees need to know in order to effectively provide consultation for their clients on the whole permaculture approach, so looking at what kinds of alternative technologies they could suggest for suburban clients, networks they can join to become more familiar with this, or people they can consult to provide this service under their banner.

    I've got some solar panels they can wire up and discuss uses for, and will knock up a backyard solar hot water system that would suit a bush shower/fernery. Anyone here care to add some thoughts to the mix?

    Cheers
    Rob
     
  2. richard in manoa

    richard in manoa Junior Member

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    Solar ovens - easy and cheap to make and you can eat the demonstration if you get a sunny day.
    In general, you could talk about how appropriate technologies make use of availble resources in an efficient way, emphasizing that Permaculture is about turning sources of pollution into solutions yadda yadda... designing living systems to reduce the need for energy consuming technologies in first place. ie grow some food on a trellis rather than run the air con flat out all summer etc.
     
  3. Fern O.

    Fern O. Junior Member

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    hi Rob

    As you've only got half a day to cover this, I think the most essential component to communicate to the Jim's Permaculture protegees is how to effectively provide consultation on alternative technologies.

    Therefore, laying out the options of different alternative technologies, the pros & cons, the costs, the different systems and who provides them, the legal & legistrative requirements. Show them how to work out the best system for their clients property. Go into EMERGY of the product and it's non-renewable alternative, and how to advise their clients how worthwhile it is to spend an extra grand on a legal & effective renewable/ alt tech system.

    ***Most importantly, show them how to integrate the alt tech system into their permaculture design, what factors they need to consider in integrating the system etc.***

    I don't think they will effectively learn how to knock up a backyard system for their clients in the space of time that you have. They'd really need to do a specialist course (as you have done Rob), to be able to effectively learn this. Make sure that you provide lots of course notes and references, so they can muck about if they wish to, or do further training in this specialist area if they want to, as well.

    Cheers
    Fern
     
  4. Fern O.

    Fern O. Junior Member

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    Although, you could do it the other way around, and show them how to knock up a backyard system, like a solar oven/bush shower (to provide for their clients) and give course notes on how to provide effective consultation on alternative technology... what do you think is best for Jim's franchisee's?

    As it's a business, I assume Jim's Franchisee's are doing the course to be able to effectively provide for their clients... unless they go into business making solar oven/ bush showers for their clients, I think the emphasis of your component should be on effective consultation, more than knocking up backyard jobs...

    They might be able to provide both effective consultation and knock up backyard jobs for their clients... but do you have time (in a half day workshop) to effectively tutor both of these areas?

    Cheers
    Fern
     
  5. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    I hope these guys are doing a full PDC before any agrees to letting the brand name 'Permaculture' go to a group like Jim's.

    No offence, they are a reputable organisation but I thought the idea was that a PDC was completed before you could use or call yourself a permie..
    Jims is not the type of organisation to miss out on any opportunity.

    No doubt Jim's will register this, I have seen a similar name [APEX] was effectively swiped by a lolly manufacturer AND IT COST MILLIONS TO GET IT BACK!! All those volunteer hours and money down the drain. APEX had to sell an asset in Sydney that was a multi story building they had had for decades.

    I hope someone has done their homework.

    I certainly dont mean to rain on anyone's parade but please make sure this whole exercise is legitimate and Permaculture's intellectual property resides with its current owners.

    floot
     
  6. RobWindt

    RobWindt Junior Member

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    This is part of an accredited course with some good PC folks involved (and I caught the tail end of an interview with Geoff Lawton discussing Jim's Permaculture on Radio National this morning). I may be out of line posting about it here but figure that the combined wisdom available can only enhance my preparations

    Some good thoughts there Fern, and I hope that I explain myself better on the course than I have here :oops: The first half of my session will be theory with tips, contacts and handouts, then some practice on small solar wiring etc to round out and reinforce the lessons. Effective consultation, LETs and Emergy will all be a part of the full PDC being provided here.

    I still teach short courses at community centres and neighbourhood houses for next-to-nothing but the more people on the ground doing this, and bringing in a wider participation, the better. One size does not fit all.

    Cheers
    Rob
     
  7. kathleenmc

    kathleenmc Junior Member

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    I totally agree with floot there....I wouldn't want to see a major company exploiting the good name of permaculture ( just as organic and eco have been) to make money, without them all doing the full 72 hour PDC. A one day intro to permaculture does not a permie make! It takes years of blood sweat and happiness in my opinion. I too caught the tail end of the Geoff chat on RN and was greatly surprised to hear about Jim's mowing. Maybe if you're a permie out there looking to start up a business you could call Jim and give him your references! Worth a try.....making a living out of something you love is a good one.....

    Kathleen
     
  8. RobWindt

    RobWindt Junior Member

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  9. kathleenmc

    kathleenmc Junior Member

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    :shock: Bloody hell! It's finally happening then! Permaculture has been and will be franchised! Farout.....!

    I'm in two minds about this. One mind says ...great, going to get that bloody word "permaculture" out there to the general public (and it will hopefully be more than just "gardening"). Making use of suburban yards that will now be multi functional, etc. Educating the masses about all things sustainable. (Not just using the land but retrofitting houses as well) Helping people to be responsible for all their inputs and outputs......

    and the other mind is slightly screaming...noooooooooooooooooo.....Something is really bothering me about this. Something to do with ethics maybe? Maybe Jim's mowing is only offering 'permaculture based' gardening? Not 'permaculture' as such. I don't know. Maybe I need to talk to Jim direct.

    The thing is I'm offering the same service in my own area. I do maintenace, landscape design and consultancy, as well as workshops and training. It's been a challenge to say the least to get work here as the word permaculture has had a bad rap over the years. I had to change my business name from 'permaculture consultancy' to what you see below.....and I am definitely getting more work now people see me as something to do with landscape! But, with the ABC gardening show now delivering regular permie spots and the big push about sustainability on a lot of other TV shows, maybe minds are changing.....

    It will be interesting to see what happens in the future with Jim's mowing.

    Kathleen
     
  10. disorderly

    disorderly Junior Member

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    I am absolutely repulsed to see permaculture franchised in this way.
    As a professional landscaper I have to liase with mowermen,women and garden maintainance people both during and after garden installations and from my experience the reason these such people are garden maintainance people is because they either dont have the get up and go or the desire ,the intelligence or the knowledge to be able to learn or give advise on a wholistic(sp) lifestyle approach pertaining to permaculture,landscaping or lifestyle creation in any sense of the words.
    To think they can pick up sufficient knowledge in a 72 hr short course (basic landscaping takes 2 to three years full time before you can even begin to design and implement on a commercial scale) and be able to dispense commercial advise is indeed a travesty and I would be ashamed to be associated with the true meaning of permaculture if this indeed adventuates.

    Scott
     
  11. paradisi

    paradisi Junior Member

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    right with you disorderly... I never did a permie course but I've got hort certs for the basic knowledge and two permaculture gardens started from scratch as backup. (Oh... and a deep respect for the permaculture bibles) The second garden was much easier because of the mistakes and dollars wasted in my first permie garden.

    To set up and establish a permaculture based garden takes about five years before the benefits are fully realised. With both my gardens I had food on the table within months of starting, but for them to become fully established and viable takes years.

    Having Jims come in and set up a permie garden seems a strange way to go.

    And wouldn't it be expensive if they did everything for you all at once.... I know the back aches, pain, frustration and pleasure of starting from a green desert and turning it into a living giving ecosystem and couldn't imagine paying someone to do it for me. Sort of takes away the basic ethics of permaculture as a system.

    Tho the people who buy their permie gardens through Jims are the sort of people who get Jim to mow the lawn, VIP to clean their house and HR Block to do their tax.....too lazy to build up the skills themselves and too rich to care.
     
  12. RobWindt

    RobWindt Junior Member

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    Some folks do not have the time or the physical ability to do it all.
    I see this as an opportunity to spread knowledge and acceptance of Permaculture to a wider audience, with trickle down benefits to those of us who have been pushing it with little reward.
    A PDC is technically all that we need to hang out a shingle ('tho we all know that it also takes experience), does the same not apply to Jim's franchisees?

    Cheers
    Rob - who's just as interested to see how it all turns out
     
  13. disorderly

    disorderly Junior Member

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    paradisi,

    sorry,I focused more on academic side of things when as we all know and you mentioned permaculture like most skill or trades in life is an ongoing learning process and nothing can take the place of practical experience.

    RobWindt,

    I would guess it would be these folk that the marketing would be aimed at.
    However its difficult,knowing that any permaculture garden goes through various stages of unsightliness and sometimes smelliness that a food forest in the front yard instead of lawn and the token garden bed , would be accepted by neighbours,councils etc.
    As most will know ,to create such a garden is somewhat of an evolutionary process.Some things work,some dont.
    What sort of client would be willing to fork over their hard earned cash to someone who could not guarantee a positive result within 12 months or whatever timeframe?

    Scott
     
  14. michele

    michele Junior Member

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    Teaching alternative technologies to Jim's students

    Hi Rob

    Michele here. I did a PDC in Gippsland last year in Dec that you taught at. I'd like to say a couple of things. First I think that Jim's Permaculture is a fantastic idea - what a great way to begin mainstreaming permaculture.

    Second, and this relates to your initial question about teaching alternative technologies, I always find that well worked out examples are good when I'm learning. As some of the posters here have pointed out, alternative technology is all about what's appropriate for the site, client and resources available so if I was a student, I'd want to have some good examples of these principles applied to actual clients/situations.

    Finally, I like the idea of an audit for the garden. A look at gardening inputs and their sustainability - ie. bringing in soil vs making compost/worm casings out of on-site waste. I actually haven't seen this sort of lesson taught well. It may seem a common sense idea to those of us with knowledge of permaculture but it's not to people who haven't really thought of it before.

    Anyway, good luck with it all. I reckon it's a really exciting development.

    Michele
     
  15. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    OMG whats happening to us

    Next itll be a macpermie burger and fries,grow your gherkin and salad day



    F#$K Jims Permaculture!!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

    Why not Bills Permaculture.........

    Me thinks some of the head permies have had too much going to their heads.

    Next theyll be giving PDCs with a free coke and disney characture.



    ANGRY Tezza
     
  16. kirsten@milkwood

    [email protected] Junior Member

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    Care for the Earth
    Care for People
    Share the yield (this includes the knowledge)

    Um, forgive me, but is this premise not another way of making Permaculture accessible and available to as many people as possible? Even to people who trust in brands? To people who would rather call up someone like Jim's Permaculture rather than a lone operator, because that's what they feel comfortable with? Is it important who does up the Permaculture design? Or is it most important that the design and implementation gets done, in good faith, by whoever is available (and fully accredited - which it looks like Jim's PC are committed to)?

    ... rather than the 'if it's not done by me or my mates, then it cannot be worthy" attitude?

    Permaculture works. We know that. It needs to be incorporated into as many landscape design systems, council manifestos and mainstream constructs as it possibly can - for the good of our species.

    What is the worst that can happen? In 12 months time, the only McMansion garden still alive (and productive) in the whole housing estate is the Jonses, who got Jim's Permaculture in... and that flows on into other yards, into other minds, into other sets of priorities, and so it goes.....

    I think, ultimately, its about disseminating the information and knowledge as quickly as possible - by whatever means is necessary, or available...

    just my 20 cents - all the best to y'all -

    kirsten
    ------------------
    https://milkwood.net
     

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