"There will always be people, who through no fault of their own, are unable to contribute to life in a way that others consider meaningful. Doesn't mean that their lives are without meaning. The challenge for the 'new' society is how we live out compassion and find a place of everyone." This is true. Geoff related a story how very old people turn eggs for their community, somewhere in Asia. So everyone could play a role in the community. There is room for political discussion Paka, but there is an end to this system. End to the payments. Most of these governments are broke, the climate is changing for the worst, and the energy these economies rely on is about to decline in a big way. If one is too have a chance at a decent life, IMO, one better learn something different from the status quo. If one is on payments, or making a living working, use the money to learn something useful while you still have a chance. I wonder what a small Permaculture community would do with an influx of refuges when comminuty members know there is not enough food production to feed so many?