It's impossible to stop. Everyone thinks they are helping!!

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Mike_E_from_NZ, Jan 6, 2006.

  1. Mike_E_from_NZ

    Mike_E_from_NZ Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    How can we save the world when some of the cleverest minds think that what they are doing is saving the world, when it maybe it's not?

    I watch a discussion group that design fuel efficient stoves largely for impoverished areas. There is a discussion going on now (and it keeps popping up) about dung burning stoves. I casually mentioned that dung belonged on the ground. The response was somewhat alarming.

    Anyway, here is a typical statement

    Note that this guy (although most don't) at least recognises that the scientists disagree with him. Of course, he dismisses them with a sweeping statement. What more effective way is there? But he is the guy that is designing the stoves so that they are safer and more efficient. A lot of the people on this list are in aid organisations.

    I think permies outnumber stove designers, so maybe we can get ahead of them.
     
  2. HoneydaleFarm

    HoneydaleFarm Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Mike,

    being new to the permie world, excuse my ignorance when I say I am not too sure what your issue is. Having worked in rural asiatic areas, I can tell you that often dung is easier to locate than other fuels are specifically for nomadic populations. In needing to fuel stoves that help in boiling (thus sterilising water and food), this would seem like a reasonable thing to be looking into??

    Maybe you need to know the whole article/background to see what your issue is?

    Alex
     
  3. Mike_E_from_NZ

    Mike_E_from_NZ Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hi Alex

    If the nomads can't find anything else to burn doesn't that tell you something about the soil?

    The trouble with this line of argument is that it can also be used to justify megadams because we need to cook and boil water.

    But, I really can't say what the answer is for your nomads, because I have had no direct experience. The land has been denuded, therefore it cannot be inhabited sustainably. In the case of permanent populations the answer would be a permaculture one - which would return all nutrients back to the soil. What to do for the next few years for fuel while the trees grow? I don't know. But a long term perspective is required.

    A permaculture solution would provide for food that didn't require heating for safety, only taste. That same solution might also provide for water that didn't need boiling for safety, only coffee.

    This reminds me of some statements I have read about what we term rainforests. Apparently some of them extend for many miles and almost all of their plants are useful to humans. Some scientists believe that some of these forests are actually human planted and designed. Done so well, that we couldn't tell the difference until recently. The populations would create permacultures and move on. So through their travels they would always have something to eat and heal themselves. Maybe another reader can expand on this.

    Mike
     
  4. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,251
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    First off, you have to recognize that EVERYONE isn't going to do EVERYTHING regarding ANYTHING. No one is going to agree on anything, including that the world is round and that we need air to survive. It just isn't going to happen. You can yell at them until they go deaf, or stomp on their feet until they're crippled, but some people aren't going to believe what you believe or do what you want them to do, EVER. :cry:

    You have to mostly accept what people are willing to do (& in many cases, it's little enough!). :oops:

    Some people are going to use manure to improve the soil. Some people are going to burn manure to boil water and cook food. Some people are going to cut down trees to boil water and cook food. :(

    If one cow produces enough manure in one year to prevent the cutting down of one large tree, is that a good trade? :eek:

    Take India (I don't want it, you can have the whole thing), for example. India's religion says cows are sacred. Cows are all over the place. They poop all over the place. Now, you have to recognize that there aren't a lot of professional (or even semi-professional) cow-poop-scoopers that run around the streets picking up this stuff and carrying it to a field. The people probably just stomp through it and the rain washes it down the drains (if they have drains) until the drains back up, making maure tea, which grows mosquitoes which deliver disease. :shock:

    So, if this guy invents an efficient cow-poop-burning stove, it will probably be using a commodity that isn't being used for anything else except for lowering the curbs (if curbs exist in India, and if they are still in sight, which I doubt, because they're probably buried under years of cow poop).

    So, maybe this guy isn't doing things by permie standards, but maybe he IS helping, and doesn't even know it! If he gets these stove distributed around India, all the housewives will be out scouring the streets for cow dung for their stoves, instead of sending hubby and the boys down to the forest to chop down another tree. :D

    And even in India (maybe ESP in India), they probably wouldn't be able to burn all the cow poop, because it usually has to be seasoned a bit (dry) to burn, and the cows keep producing it because no one eats the cows.

    It's all in how you look at it. (However, I'm not talking Monsanto :evil: , okay?)

    Sue
     
  5. Mike_E_from_NZ

    Mike_E_from_NZ Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Fair enough Sue.

    Mike
     
  6. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    most rural villages and small towns in India/Pakistan use a kerosene type fuel stove. They are highly flammable and cause untold misery to thousands of women and children from horrendeous burns...enhanced by traditional flowing clothing and very poor medical treatment.
    A dung burning stove sounds great to me...not all dung can be returned to soil as manure as many families are not farmers...it's readily available..sustainable..and cheap..anything that lessens the danger of burns to so many women has my vote.
    Cathy
     
  7. Mike_E_from_NZ

    Mike_E_from_NZ Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hi Sue, Cathy, Allan

    Thanks for your comments.

    They have prompted me to do little more looking around and it seems that dung burning is quite common. Can't argue with it really, when the dung would otherwise go to waste.

    The purpose of my post wasn't really to say don't burn dung (although that is what I thought at the time), more to say that the statements that some people are making (not here, but there) are saying that dung is no good for the soil anyway. Which is the absurd part, no?

    Mike
     
  8. ajs2040

    ajs2040 Guest

    To manure or not to manure?

    Hi guys, this is a interesting topic...

    I would have to say with this topic, like most things to do with Permaculture and ecological design, the only general rule is that there is no general rule!

    It really depends on the situation, I mean for example if one is in a area where the soils are extremely depleted, - although composting weeds is a good source of getting nutrients into the soil, - plants are only as good as the soil that they grew in, so while composting plants and putting it in one location, will concentrate nutrients enriching the soil, you will probably have the same nutrient deficiencies in the enriched soil as you have on the entire site .

    This is not so with animals (provided that they are allowed to freerange and have a diverse and healthy diet) animals can take in a variety of nutrients from a variety of locations and concentrate this in their manure, which to my knowledge (especially with chooks) is extremely nutrient rich and is available in a soluble form to plants. So in a situation such as this I would advocate returning the manure to the soil to enrich it rather than burn it, which in the long run, would deplete the soil even more. However if there is a vast amount of manure and there a no trees, I would suggest using some NOT all of the manure for fuel, until some good pioneers are up and growing to provide sustainable source wood.

    This is the kind of fuel use/land use I would suggest for areas of the Earth which have been dessertifed from the onslaught of modern monoculture and which are improvised - almost the worse sort of situation you can get.

    Also please, ! Anyone please correct me if they believe the information I have above is wrong, I still have much to learn!

    Additionally I have to agree with Sue, at least the using the Manure is better than burning the Amazon rainforest to the ground, also it is a lot safer for 3rd world women and children!

    Cheers, Anton

    :wink:
     
  9. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,251
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    People who say that manure isn't worth anything when added to the soil obviously don't know what they're talking about!

    And I didn't know about the kerosene thing.

    Sue
     
  10. Dani

    Dani Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    solar ovens (tho not perfect for all situations) might be useful
     
  11. britishwhitesrock

    britishwhitesrock Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    quite right dani! I myself love solar cookers and are passionate about them. They are now able to be cheaply made (out of cardboard and al foil) focus the suns light onto a dark pot, black al pots work beautifully, in a pastic bag. They can be used for the majority of the year even in colder climates (you can use them effectively in Britian)

    I myself have made and used my solar panel cooker for roasts, pasta and many other dishes, (those of you thinking 'but it would take hours are right' but thats not a bad thing, think of it like a cockpot that only has to be tended every 3 hours or so)

    I have found solar cookers to perform wonderfully, Chrissy dinner tasted delicous, I had a cold kitchen and it cooked eailier then expected thanks to the wonderful traditional aussie christmas weather (far too hot!). Solar cookers are a wonderful way of reclycing waste materials in a way that can break starvation cycles caused when poor people are denied access to firewood. The best part being that it allows people to stockpile rationed firewood for times when the cooker can't be used

    here a link for anyone interested https://solarcooking.org/

    Solar cookers are being used by refugees in Kenya right now as well as many other third world countries


    in conclusion- there is a subsititue to burning dung :wink:
     

Share This Page

-->