I'm wondering how many folks out there are economically self sustaining on their permaculture farms, without outside income, particularly from giving classes or people paying you to work on your farms?
Can I ask a dumb question here, one which has kind of been hinted at in other threads recently? Isn't permaculture more than just about farming? Isn't permaculture more a lifestyle mindset aimed at minimal waste, minimal inputs and reducing the need for oil/petrol "subsidies" to do business and just generally live our lives? I am now working part-time instead of full-time, catching a bus instead of driving to work. Like "sustainable", isn't permaculture a series of shades of grey rather than black and white? The more I use permaculture to achieve sustainability, the better. I make this observation because I think "permaculture" gets confused with other issues like self-sufficiency and organics and profitable micro-eco-farming, all of which it might overlap with. I am trying to apply PC to a suburban acreage and find the accepted PC techniques don't always work so easily in suburbia. But PC is a systems design mindset. So shouldn't it also be possible in suburbia as well as on farms? Is it only for farms or do the rest of us also get a look in? Sorry to hijack your thread Zydeco but it has crystallised some things I've been turning over for a while.
Yahoo group for urban permaculture I found a Yahoo group for Urban Permaculture that you might want to check out. I admit, I've only joined and not read anything yet, but, it's there for you to check out for yourself. Just try a search on those two key words "Urban permaculture"
Hi zydeco, This is a good question which is often derailed by people who (quite correctly) testify to the many benifits of permaculture other than the one you asked. I do not know any people in my immediate circle who make a complete living just from their permaculturally grown crops. There are however quite a few who provide all there own food, power etc and so minimize their costs to such an extent that they can live from selling plants (lots of permie nurserys around here) or the procedes of publications on the subject. Personally i am trying to rangle an economically sustainable existence from my land alone. I'v been at it full time for a little over a year now and i'm about 3/4 of the way there (in $ terms). I guess i'm using a combination of partial self sufficientcy, to minimize my costs and reduce my reliance on inputs from outside. And i'm partly doing it "profitable micro-eco-farming", that is, small scale niche organic produce to pay the remaining bills, inputs etc... its all about ballance. I dislike the $ economy and prefer self reliance and barter. Unfortunatly telstra won't trade me a phone line and bigpond acount for carrots and Broad beans though :-( Sometimes a few $ don't go astray. I try to avoid the need to earn any income outside like the plague. Working your garden enriches the soul. Working for others is often detremental to it. cheers, IG
other expenses There's also the other expenses I would find it hard to avoid here in the US, like car insurance, health insurance, putting away for retirement for when I can't work.
Simple answer: No it is not. was already discussed in this thread Let me explain. I've visited several permaculture sites. Without financial inflow from outside (outside jobs, pdc courses, etc) most of the sites I've seen are not economically sustainable. The truth is in an economic crash all of them would lose their land within a short period of time because of the inability to pay mortgage, land taxes, or shire fees. Most of them are not even be able to feed themselves without external input.[/url]
you're right louisa, i see it as a guide to changing bad habits for better habits along sustainable lines, not as a money making venture with some sort of career path. when i first read the post i though not another make money from p/c thread??!! len
I only time I intend to make any money from this property is when we sell it. I have been at this Permie thing for a short time now, just over three years now and I see it as a wealth of knowledge and in no way anything to do with making money (for us), I work part time and my partner works full time and we have a pretty good healthy lifestyle and as things develop from the hard work we have done we can rely less on the outside world. We are eating more and more of our own food and I can't really put a price on our home grown organic food, We still have a long way to go, as food trees develop and the water/swale systems settle down and the stock feed gets better we will save more money which we will in-turn put into our home loan. Doing courses from here would be great in a few years, I would do them for the love of it and not the cash rewards. Chris from Belize is the person to talk too, amazing person and story of life style change. I hope to get over there some day.
when we sold our property using p/c principals or practises didn't entice the customers, we even ended up taking the land for wildlife sign down as it was pointed out it could work against us, as very very many buyers have no idea about being sustainable all they are looking for is a tree change, and to be land barons or somewher for the kids to buzz around on their victa mowers on 2 wheels. len
Surely "economically sustainable" is different from "profitable". I beleive that using sustainable agricultural practices (including permaculture) on a smallish bit of land (2 acres+ maybe) can provide an economically sustainable existence for a person or family. If i try to provide all the needs i can for my family and sell - or preferably barter - niche produce to cover my remaining costs and needs then it is economically sustainable. I don't see whats wrong with trying to derive the entirety of your living from your land in a sustainable way. It is not the same as "making money from permacultre" which implies a profit motive. IG
I am naive because I don't have a plot of land, not even grow my own food other than sprouts. But logically it seems that permacultures is the ONLY economically sustainable system in the longterm that does not end in the breakdown of society, destruction of human lives, cancer and disease and the downfall of civilization. As far as the individual land owner making a living off of permaculture, I feel there is unlimited potential for increasing ones profit and sustainability with permaculture. You can refine our crops to include those such as saffron, ginseng and others that command very high prices...you can fit these ultra-crops in between the other stardard food crops. Since cancer is going to be a major issue in standard culture, growing anti-cancer herbs, and selling teas and capsules for cancer will be profitable...you just have to word your advertising so the Medical Industry won't come down on you. By remaining GM free you also increase your returns. Creating "products" out of your own produce might also increase $$. Using ORMUS and rockdust and copious humus to build up the soils will create the kind of produce that people will pay top dollar for. The one area where I see a problem is if new fuels do not arrive to even out the peak oil decline...is that Permaculturalists will find it difficult to transport their food to markets...so might have to deal exclusively with the local population in a worst case scenario...and by that time many of the urbanites will be on the land, doing the permaculture thing also. I think there are infinite ways of increasing the profit margin with Permaculture if you brainstorm and think outside the box. Watch the signs, the large and small trends and needs of local populations and humanity as a whole...and see how Permaculture can come to the rescue in the myriad of problems created by standard culture that is messing everything up royally. Eventually ALL humanity and human systems will be permaculturalized and ephemeralized...through the highest technology nature can provide, if we commit to being earnest and lifelong students of nature.
Yes in theory you are right. Lets see a practical example. Ahem, I don't know of one... Even Kibbutz turned out not to be self sufficient ...
Permaculture isnt about making $$$$$$$$$$ as some on this board think.... Its not mandatory to be totally absolutly self sufficiency..... Permaculture is learning to become more S.S..little bits at a time,it can take years or a lifetime,it may never happen but to be S.S in just a few ways can make a heap of difference...If ya got a $300,000 mortgge well youll be doing it longer then a $20,000 mortgage..or o those who rent, or those lucky enough to own your dwellings.. Also i see less of the Permanent Agriculture bit of Perma Culture. I dont see the culture as a part of "agriculture" far far from it,I dont want anything to do with the current way of food growing".. I see "Permaculture" as being "permenant" "culture" As in Our culture must take responsibility for our lives. a Culture of responsibility. We are the only species on this planet that allows our main drinking and food supplies to be left in the hands of other people.... I wonder how sharks,eagles,and polor bears would survive if they left it up to others to feed them... Not very long I suspect...... Tezza
yeah , ask not is permaculture economically sustainable but is the economy permaculturally sustainable.
Yes I agree. Unfortunately it does not work this way in the real world. Even Tagari farm had to be closed down on the peak of its success because the local council wanted to build the road on Tagari farms cost. The farm was not sustainable in terms of the real world out there even it was sustainable in the permaculture meaning of the word...
the real world is a changing place ,more rapidly all the time. We have all had to bend to the powers that be to some extent at some time but that is history. Permaculture is about the future and a long term one at that. just look at the economy, how economical is it? in what terms, for how long ,for whom?.Permaculture may well not be economically viable but neither is the economy. o-oh here comes the other half I'm being hijacked heeelp!!!!! (The economy is based on growth and growth is not sustainable long term. There is big change afoot, perhaps a shift away from economic rationalisation and towards wisdom and permaculture. The transition may be very challenging but lets hold on to faith, stand strong and determined and show others how permaculture can provide answers to todays challenges that the old systems can't.) Yes dear!
Yes, but knowing that does not help much, if you have to abandon a thriving property like Tagari, which was designed by Bill Mollison himself, because you can financially not afford t to keep the farm running as a permaculture demonstration site and education centre ...
It may not help you much now but that knowlege earned by those who have been through the tagari experience will be far wider reaching in the future. I dont know the details of tagaris problem all I know is its up for sale.But there must be some lessons to be learnt. May be the lesson is just that permaculture is or was not economically viable at that time.may be the lesson is that all things need to die to be reborn. yes I agree that permaculture is not economically viable at this point in time but I would'nt throw the baby out with the bath water especially now that the economic systems are crashing all around us.
“If a particular human activity cannot produce lasting benefit within the individual’s life span, even less so can it do so as new generations come and go.” Thomas Frydrych “We have in hand excellent means to do in 10 years more than could be done in several centuries without them, if we apply ourselves to making the most of them, and do nothing else except what must be done." Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz (1646) “The first thing to recognize in human/earth relations when contemplating “rights” is “quality not quantity” —ie: diversity within the continuity.” Thomas Berry Consider that mainstream culture built on the foundations of chemical agribusiness is not sustainable, nor is it humane. Across the board it violates the rights of organisms on earth, including humans. Those who see no problem with chemical agribusiness and its dark brother the chemical medical industry are more invested in quantity, rather than quality. In this sense profit is obtained only through human suffering, and suffering of all life on earth. In fact standard culture is so far off base those caught up in it are insensible to their own disease, and incognizant of the impending doom that such an anti-life system will inevitably bring down. So in considering the sustainability or the “profitability” of permaculture we have to look foremost to quality of life, and the potential for continued evolution of life on earth. So fundamentally this issue on “how are we to live” is a moral and spiritual issue. If we put all that uncanny genius that we invested in our means of self destruction, and turned it into the service of an ultimately ethic way of life, then I am sure we could make immediate and infinite economically viable solutions. Some miscellaneous money making ideas for living off a permaculture farm: Flower essences, essential oils, tree resins, expeller pressed oils, massage oils, coffee, dried fruit, nuts, raw fruit-nut sports bars, spirulina, ORMUS alchemical m-state products, aloe gel and products, pomegranite-mangosteen juice, freeze dried neutraceuticals, herbs & spices, seedlings, plants, earthworm castings, biodynamic horticultural preparations, compost tea, seaweed brew and natural fertilizers. Books-videos-educational materials and workshops, new technology inventions, art/craft, building materials, bamboo sap, bamboo wood, honey, bee products, cosmetics and salves, fibers, papers, fabrics, natural-insultation materials, fuels.
I think what is making Permaculture appear not profitable is that up until now - resources are considered free except for the cost of extraction. For example, with oil - who pays the original owner? (that would be earth) - No one, too much of our current economic model is based on that resources are free. This is rapidly changing but the truth is, the profitabity of the old system was only based on stealing from future generations and from the overall system. But, we are running out of resources. When fertilizer was dirt cheap (pardon the pun) there was no motivation (besides soil health!) to do anything other than buy some inorganic fertilizer - but as the price goes up to reflect scarcity, a permaculture system appears to be more cost effective. Much of the burden of taxes is paying for systems you do not use as much as others - like roads, etc. Unfortunately, that is a fact of life up there. We have an advantage that our taxes on land are very low - and as reforestation, we are exempt! We are profitable, and, if I understand the concept, our profitability is due in large part to permaculture. We have clients, but we grow trees for them - these trees create the shade that is used as a nursery to bring back a permanent rainforest. It is no different from selling a product, it is just that our customers buy the product ahead of time. We used horses, sheep, cattle to keep the grass down after the trees are large enough. Horses for transportation whenever possible. The fertilizer to provide nutrients for the seedling nursery. The harvested wood is processed in our own furniture factory (small one but growing) and the sawdust from that helps the chickens and sheep for bedding - I could go on about fish systems etc. Because the system is working so well - I quit my consulting job in software which paid very well. Granted, all of this required a lot of start up capital - but now, it is sustainable and we are already at the point we don't need tree owners - except to help us secure more land to reforest. Perhaps the problem is that if you are small, it is hard to make it work - but we have 500 acres (200 hectares) and 25 full-time workers. So, unless I am wrong, we are a permaculture business that is profitable.
