Introducing Me

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Quje, Oct 11, 2005.

  1. Quje

    Quje Junior Member

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    Just thought I should finally log in and have some input into the forums after mths of reading I was starting to feel like a bit of a stalker :oops:

    Baldcat (aka Dan the man) assures me that this is quite a welcoming and friendly forum with wonderful people in it, and after reading alot of the posts I tend to agree wholeheartedly!

    With reference to the stalker call earlier, it is just that I feel like I know alot of you already. In particular the people like Fran, Tully, Cathy, Tezza, baleboy, Christopher (boy can he write!), frosty, Joel and of course Dan.

    So I just thought I should announce that I am here, reading and I very much enjoy this forum and will continue to read with interest even if I don't have much by the way of replies or posts.

    Thanks Quje
     
  2. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    So it was you there lurking in the shadows Quje.... Welcome aboard....

    I think that around here, sometimes it's easy to forget that your actually on an open forum which can be visited by anyone in the world. We're a little like any crazy disfunctional family, as I'm sure you've noticed while you've been lurking around..

    Some damn interesting stuff happens around here though.... :D

    Joel
     
  3. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Hello Quje,

    As Richard said to me a few months back, "Welcome to the Forum"!

    I have found this forum to be filled with onteresting people, and I love that it exists.

    Many of us our considered lunatics, or at least oddballs in the communities where we live, so having this forum is nice.

    Questions: where are you? What do you do there?

    Looking forward to hearing from you,

    Christopher
     
  4. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    :) Hi Quji
    Welcome...I like this site because it has interesting ideas, and not everyone takes themselves and cyber life too seriously. I am a begining (yet again) permie as we move around a bit. Hope to be in one spot now for a while at least long enough to harvest the artichokes and asparagus.
    Cheers
    Cathy
     
  5. Quje

    Quje Junior Member

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    :D Thanks for the warm welcome!

    I am in Robinvale a small horticultural town NW Vic. (Oz) and my main job is getting other people jobs, as an Employment Consultant (what a wanky title! :roll: )
    I also work as an IT teacher at night and a/hr's as an Ambulance Community Office (just helpping out qualified Paramedics - we drive for them but also have advanced first aid training)

    As you can see none of this has much to do with permiculture but my interest comes from reading this forum and embracing the philosophy so far with not much application ..................... yet! :wink:

    I particularly liked the discussion you guys had in the 'Been Pondering' thread and I may go back there to add my little bit, but for now I have a few ponderings and questions that I would like to ask;

    Is there a limit to the population that the Earth can sustain no matter how great our farming practices are? And assuming that there is, then are the actions of good minded people such as yourselves just delaying the point at which we reach unsustainablity?

    When you have one country with a one child policy and another giving out cash incentives to breed and produce more consumers to move the ecconomy along.

    At what point do we draw the line between trying to hold a sustainable population and infringing on peoples basic human rights :?:

    Any way that is way off topic and I have rambled on way to much :oops:
    Hope I have given you an insite into me Christopher

    Catch you soon, Quje
     
  6. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    g'day quje

    welcome to the forum :D

    as usual I seem to have arrived late : :oops:

    I suppose in a way our actions are delaying the effects of unsustainability

    but then again at least someone will survive :roll:

    and maybe the new "civilisation" can be more sustainable and peaceful without needing wars and general militarism to "boost" the economy

    frosty
     
  7. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Quje,

    Thanks for telling us about yourself.

    Let me preface whatever I write with a generous covering of "in my opinon":

    Short answer, yes, there is a limit. If our population continues to grow, we will, eventually, run out of space to grow sufficient food for everyone. However, right now, most food problems are political in nature.

    Long answer, we could extend our food security by increasing our utilization of spirulina and other tings, especially aquaponics :wav: , as well as stacked polycultures of perrenial crops would increase efficiencies. Just as the much touted and false success of the so-called "green revolution" increased food production, (at a cost that is hard to tabulate, loss of biodiversity, increase of persistent biocides in the environment, massive algae blooms in water from nitrogen rich run off, but especially the loss of intangibles like indigenous, and I mean that on a global level, indigenous knowledge of sustainable food production in ONE generation), that increased food availability resulted in spikes of population increases, and with that came increased demand for food... and subsequent famine, disorder and disease, which is the same script being played out yet again.

    So, yes, we can and will increase our food production by increasing efficiencies, and this will enable us to have a bigger population... but...with those increased efficiencies and increased caloric production you can expect another increase in population, if history tells us anything. And then we are back where we were....

    When the planetary population increases to unsustainable levels, or regional food security is no longer possible, then we will see problems, in fact if we look closely at Rwanda we see that the root cause of the spasm of violence in 1994 was in part a super high population density, and the ethnic nature of the attacks clouds the fact that much of the motivation for the attacks was based on a desire to obtain the neighbors assets, especially land.

    These problems will manifest themselves as wars, civil unrest, famine, epidemics, etc. This has happened before many times on regional levels. The Chaco people, the Maya, Easter Island, the Greenland Norse, etc, and culturally andsometimes, if they couldn't change, or adapt, they disappeared completely.

    The Maya, always my favorite example of a failed society, (I live in what was an urban area in 750 AD, in a valley where between 20,000 and 40,000 people lived and where less than 2000 are beginning now to have land use problems based on population density resulting in shortened fallow periods), lost most of its great tradition in the 9th century, when overpopulation and increased warfare forced the abandonment of ALL of the southern lowland sites. The great cities of Quirigua, Copan, Tikal, Caracol, Palenque etc, all were abandoned within 100 years of one another. The Itza moved north into Yucatan, and had a much debased less-great-tradition all the way until the conquest in the 15th and 16th Centuries, with the last independent Maya kingdom of Nojpeten in the Peten falling to the Spanish in 1697. But by then all of the great cities had been abandoned for over 500 years, and the lesser great cities in Yucatan and up in the Guatemalan highlands fell after the arrival of the Spanish.

    The ancient Maya, especially in the Classic period, had a very advanced agricultural system, with annuals like beans and corn, vegetable production, complex agroforestry systems (with "bread nut", aka "ramon nut" or brossimum allicastrum as a staple food for the peasantry and corn for the elite), and avocado, mame sapote, cacao, many types of other plants, raising dogs and turkeys, plus hunting of deer, peccary, etc..

    They also had chinampa agriculture (think original aquaponics :wav: ), with canals and islands, and fish, turtle, crayfish and eels in the water, and veggie and fruit production on land. These systems are highly productive but require a lot of labor to establish and maintain.

    I have also see many miles of terraced land in the Chiquibul rainforest, which was subject to larger polities, in this case most likely either directly Caracol or some other polity in subjection to Caracol.

    However, we have a very incomplete picture of their agriculture, and there is much debate on whether or not corn was THE staple the Maya ate. (I categorically reject that because growing corn does not leave a farmer with excess... and you need excess to get a population up to that density, to have the cultural and scientific flowers of art, writing, astronomy etc...) Regardless of wether some idiot Phd archeologist with his head up his pompous ass with zero, I mean Z-E-R-O, zip, zilch, nada, nothing, NO knowledge of farming says authoratatively that the ancient Maya grew enough corn to develop such a sophisticated culture, (complete and utter balderdash , a pipe dream of the most optimistic, uninformed and deluded sort, propagated by overeducated simpletons!! rant, rave..) ummm, yes, hrumph, regardless of how they produced that level of abundance, that overflowing excess, that surplus that kept full time artists, masons, royalty and priests, standing armies, potters, house builders, all of the occupations you might expect from such a large well established culture, they did it with their agriculture. We can all safely say that they knew a thing or two about food production, because that is the pillar that any civilization is built on, and they built the most advanced civilization the lowland humid tropics has ever seen (with the possible exception of the Khmer people)...

    However, even with their very advanced agriculture, their impressive food systems and art, science, incredibly beautiful cultural expressions, the buildings, jade carvings, the monumental architecture, including the stellae (covered with glyphs and some of them are obviously the artistic apogee of a very advanced people), even with their trade routes that has me finding obsidian arrow heads and jade beads occasionally here, hundreds of miles from where these stones occur naturally, indicating an extensive trade network, even with all of that, perhaps %90 of the Maya people died before, during and after the collapse, and the great tradition of the Maya died, mostly, with them.

    Yet, there are millions of Maya now, spread out over Guatemala, Belize, Mexico, Honduras, and a few in El Salvador.

    I think we might some day have that same situation, either on multi regional levels or on a global level since the globe is now so small. But as a species, some of us will most likely survive, and there will be pleny of land to grow food, which will make the planet a nice place to live, for awhile, and the survivors will have lots of offspring... which will require more agriculture, which will make more food for more people, and more people will tax resources, which will lead to squabbles over resources, which will lead to... you see where this is headed, right? :lol:

    My opinion, or thesis statement: we will have food production problems. There will be starvation and wars over food resources (and oil, which is tied to food production with this model most agriculture is using, let alone delivery systems), and much of the people will perish, but some will survive...

    I don't know how to draw a line between human rights and sustainable popuation densities, but I know the white teeth of famine will take care of that, eventually. I also don't think that is going to happen anytime soon, at least not on a global scale.

    BTW, not way off topic, and, trust me, you didn't ramble on too much. I should know :lol: , this ramble is a case in point. Your case of CDD is mild.

    And thanks for saying I can write! I present this opus above to you in honour of your getting bold, stepping up and joining the fray... I look forward to reading more about what you are doing, what you intend to do, your thoughts, etc.

    G'night, Quje!

    C
     
  8. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    g'day quentin,
    yeah, I would say that there are already too many people being too stupid...
    I think of the Permaculture movement as trying to come up with ways that might make a much smaller total population sustainable. Whether or not we intentionally reduce our numbers or it happens as a result of mother earth giving most of us the flick, we (or future generations) will see.
     
  9. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    :( I think mother nature has been doing her bit lately to influence world poulation....she even might be a bit pissed off :x
    For me permaculture is the way for our small section of the world to be a better place to live. Better health from better food...
    The bigger problems of world population etc etc are beyond me so I'll just keep on trying to grow enough vegies for my family and friends and keep my individual footprint as small as possible.
    Cheers
    Cathy :)
     
  10. bushy

    bushy Junior Member

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    Welcome Quje, Wow, you know how to start with a gritty topic !!!!!
    My few cents worth is pessimistic, what we are seeing in Sudan and other central African countries is a microcosm of the world 100 years from now. I hope I'm wrong.
    Very interesting history on the Maya, keep on ranting Christopher.


    bushy
     
  11. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    I have to run. Town trip this AM, but wanted to say Big Up for Cathy! That is exactly what this planet needs more of ! UP, UP Cathy!

    Bushy, the Maya and their collapse are fascinating. Their society, great tradition were simply the apogee of cultural expression in the Americas, and then, crash, bang, boom, they destroyed themselves....

    Doesn't leave one optimistic, but people like many who post here, Cathy and Joel, Tully, Richard, Frosty, Tam, Penny, Dan, Franceyne, etc (many others my coffee deprived head isn't allowing to pop out onto this screen) , all have pieces of the puzzle, and together we can slow our inevitable descent into... no, better yet, together we can reverse some of the damage to the world, offsetting the habits of overconsumption that many of our neighbors indulge in, at the peril of the planet... no, wait, together we can create many small solutions, and educate our neighbors by example, which will affect change on a local scale.

    C
     
  12. Quje

    Quje Junior Member

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    bushy, it does seam that I have sparked discussion on, as you say, a gritty topic straight up. This is probably due to a couple of reasons, one being that I have had these thoughts stewing while I have been (as Joel would say) lurking in the shadows :lol: . The other reason is due to the fact that I am relatively new to this permie stuff so I can't talk from experience which leaves me with philosophical talk (which I love btw :D )
    I'm just glad that I have found a place with people that listen, no strike that, contribute to my very own hypothetical's
    Just wait until you hear my theory about natural selection and how we are stuffing it up with modern medicine, but that is for another day and definatly another forum :D

    I am just glad that I received some fantastic replies that made for great reading (I too get bored at work and use this as an out :lol: ) and I'm looking forward to read more! :D
     
  13. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Gday Quji.......Welcome to the board.

    I glad you owned up to being the lurker I was worried that it maybe little johnny....

    Ill always answer someone who mentions my name in conversation,especially if its a nice comment lol.

    I look forward to some interesting conversation/post in the future..
    especialy your subject of natural selection....Now that is a can of worms,

    but thats ok i love worms.... 8) 8)

    Tezza
     
  14. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    Well natural selection and modern medicine.....ummm.....could start a riot with that one.....Mother nature is fighting back on that front too...MRSA and VRE....the superbugs that dont respond to antibiotics is one example. Funny thing... natural remedies such as tea tree oil and sunlight do kill them...
    Any way my add to gritty subject is I just found out the gov. is attempting to charge the 38c excise tax on home produced biodiesel!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
    How's that for supporting a cleaner greener future.
    Cathy
     
  15. Quje

    Quje Junior Member

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    I hear, and I don't know how true this is (research isn't my forte :oops: ), that sugar cain farmers in Qld haven't got much of a market for their product and want to process it to make ethanol fuel but have been limited due to the government restiction on the % of ethanol fuel allowed. Can anyone fill me in on this, good bad or otherwise

    And yeah Cathy, I am staying well away from the Natural Selection topic as I have been torn in the past discussion it :shaking2: . There is my philosophical pondering side that tends to be overrun by my ethical moral side (good thing really). Typical bloody Librian always batting for both sides :lol: . It has given me many hrs of deep thought though with plenty of hypotheticals poping up along the way (notice a trend).

    Anyway I better stop writting before I talk myself into a corner :lol:

    Quje
     
  16. Franceyne

    Franceyne Junior Member

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    Welcome Quje, my fellow Librian :D

    Sorry my greeting is so late in the game here but I have been working interstate (Gold Coast, Qld - how do people live there!? It is so humid! :lol: )

    Is Robinvale on the Murray? (Beautiful dry heat :wink: )

    I think water will be the limiting factor to our population growth - there may be the same amount of water on the planet as there ever was but less and less of it is useable due to people contaminating it and interfereing with the natural cycles...

    I look forward to hearing more from you and your philosophical mind.

    Cheers,
    Fran.
     
  17. Quje

    Quje Junior Member

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    Thanks for the welcome Fran :p ,

    Being a libran your birthday must be around this time of year so HAPPY BIRTHDAY :eek:ccasion4:

    I know what it is like in this forum, I have spent most of this morn. just trying to catch up on all the reading from posts over the weekend :read2:

    Yeah, Robinvale is on the Murray (fantastic river!), up near Mildura and we have had some great dry heat lately (yes I agree that humid stuff is too much).

    Hope to keep in touch and talk soon.

    Thanks,

    Quje
     
  18. Franceyne

    Franceyne Junior Member

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    Thank you :lol: Tomorrow - my birthday is tomorrow :eek:ccasion1: How about you? When is your birthday?

    It has been a while since my partner and I have been up to camp on the Murray - it is one of Glenn's favourite destinations.

    Cheers,
    Fran.
     
  19. Guest

    Welcome to the board Q,

    Glad to see you have stepped from the shadows and joined the crew. Many here like using the words 'natural selection', but am yet to read anything that resembles a good convo with regard to it. I would love to hear your thoughts - if it were not for philosophers we would never have had any of the sciences. It is in those thoughtful and reflective moments, that we permit ourselves to progress.

    Being a researcher doesn't mean we have the answers. It means we are willing to look for them. There is a saying I use quite often, when folks come expecting me to know stuff that is simply beyond my lines of enquiry...

    "If I knew what I was doing - it wouldn't be called research".

    All the best.
     
  20. Quje

    Quje Junior Member

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    Wow tomorrow Fran, cograts hope you have a great day
    I have to wait until the 22nd before I celebrate, it's a quiet one this year as I am gearing up for my 30th next year. :supz:

    Sorry Rainbow Farmer I fear that my thoughts on natural selection would be seen as harsh and would depict me as being someone I am not - so maybe after you get to know a little more about me (and over a few beers) we could have that convo. I'm not just trying to get out of it, I just don't want to misrepresent myself. :oops:

    I will however put this topic to you that I came up with when I was thinking about the most successful being that lives today. For the purpose of this discussion try not to dwell on individual points that I may get wrong but try to understand the broader point I am trying to convey.
    Most of my friends immediately assume that we humans are up there because of our technological advancements, but I tend to disagree.
    If you take Darwin's theory that we are here primarily to survive and reproduce, than we fall way down in both these areas. For instance if you compare the humble dog to us then you get the following comparisons
    - After 9 mths gestation, humans give birth to (most often) 1 child
    - A dog’s gestation period is only around 2 mths and the average number of dogs in a litter is around 5-6
    - We then have to raise and nurture this baby for at least 13 year before it becomes somewhere near being self supportive
    - A dog on the other hand can look after itself in say 2 years

    OK so the dog (and many other animals has got us on the reproduce bit, but what about the survive part?

    Well this would depend on what you would interoperate as survival, is it living the longest (as in a life time) or how long the species have been around. And as you may have guessed we have been beaten there as well! The tortoise can live for 150 years plus and the crocodile has survived the dinosaur age.

    When we measure success do we think purely about numbers (ie population), if we do then the insects cain us in that as well!

    So what have we succeeded in? What makes us think we are top of the heap? :?

    Got to go know but I will try to get back to this, talk to you soon

    Quje
     

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