Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by sushil yadav, Jul 7, 2005.

  1. sushil yadav

    sushil yadav Junior Member

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    pebble,.......Thanks for expressing your views on Industrialization.

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    Story of Pseudo Environmentalism in Industrial Society.
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    A Serial Killer with endless supply of ammunition goes on the rampage in the city.....The Police are informed.....They arrive on the scene.....They do not try to stop or capture the shooter.....They do not try to kill or incapacitate the shooter.....They allow him to continue shooting......They give him full liberty to move around all over the city.

    The Police focus on the victims of shooting.....They take them to Hospitals and try to save them with the help of best Technology / Health Care.....The Government sets up thousands of Organizations to do research on how the Whites can be saved, How the Blacks can be saved, How the Asians can be saved, How the Young can be saved, How the Elderly can be saved.....The Government gives Billions of Dollars of Grant to "Think Tanks" and NGO's to find out how the victims can be saved.....People of the city engage in Billions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument to find a solution to the problem.

    This is not the story of the Mass Shooter.....This is the story of Environmentalism in Industrial Society.

    Environment is being destroyed by Industrial Activity........Environmental Activists and Organizations are trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity

    One group is trying to save Forests......The second group is trying to save Rivers......The third group is trying to save Oceans......The fourth group is trying to make the Air clean......The fifth group is trying to save Tigers and Elephants......The sixth group is trying to save Whales and Dolphins.

    Height of Insanity and Abnormality.

    People who are trying to save environment in Industrial Society without stopping all Industrial Activity deserve the Nobel Prize for Lunacy.

    Why don't people realize the futility and absurdity of their efforts......It is impossible to save animals, trees, air, water and land without stopping all Industrial Activity.

    What is the point in saving a few Dogs, Cats, Whales, Tigers and Elephants when Industrial Society is killing billions of animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses and billions of Wild Animals in Forests by destroying Forests with Industrial Activities like Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks and ever expanding Towns and Cities.......Industrial Society is also killing billions of fish in the oceans with Industrial Fishing and through discharge of billions of tonnes of Industrial Waste into oceans which has made them poisonous, acidic, warmer and created oxygen-deprived dead zones in the oceans.

    It is impossible to save Air, water and Land without stopping all Industrial Activity because Industrial Activity is killing them with trillions of tonnes of Metal waste, Plastic waste, Gaseous waste, Chemical waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.......Industrial Activity produces trillions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Waste and there are only three places on earth where all this waste can go....Air, water and Soil.....There is no fourth place on earth where this waste can go...... It is impossible for Rivers, Oceans, Atmosphere and Soil to be clean in Industrial Society.

    This planet can only sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or an Agrarian Society......Not an Industrial Society.

    All Environmentalism is Pseudo-Environmentalism in Industrial Society.......It is impossible to save environment in an Industrial Society.

    People who pretend they are saving environment in Industrial Society are even more insane, abnormal and criminal than people who are destroying the environment.

    It is impossible to save environment in Industrial Society because Industrialization itself is the cause of environmental destruction.........In a non-industrial society environmentalism was not even needed.......In the absence of Industrial Activity environment got saved automatically because only limited destruction of environment was possible without Industrial Machines.

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    Environment has been destroyed by Industrial Activity........Trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity is like ..

    Trying to save a victim of shooting by shooting him even more.

    Trying to save a victim of stabbing by stabbing him even more.

    Trying to save a victim of poisoning by giving him even more poison.

    Height of Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality.......You cannot save environment by destroying more of it.

    Industrial Society has been destroying Extra environment for 250 years........It has been destroying environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

    You cannot save a person after killing him.......You cannot save environment after it has been killed by Industrial Activity.

    The entire Industrial Society deserves the Nobel Prize for Lunacy for pretending that environment is getting saved when the reality is that Industrial Society has been destroying extra environment after industrialization and has destroyed so much extra environment in 250 years that there is hardly any environment left to save.

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    What is the Result of 50 years of Environmentalism/ Pseudo Environmentalism in Industrial Society???

    Industrial Society has been killing millions of times more Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land than Pre-Industrial Society every day for several decades.

    Industrial Society has been killing millions of acres of Forests with Industrial Activity every day for several decades.

    Industrial Society has been killing Billions of Animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day for several decades.

    Industrial Society has been killing millions of Wild Animals by destroying the Forests where they live with Industrial Activity every day for several decades.

    Industrial Society has been killing Air, Water and Soil with billions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste every day for several decades.....Industrial Society has been killing Rivers, Oceans, Air/ Atmosphere and Soil/ Land with Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic waste, Gaseous waste, Chemical Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste every day for several decades.

    Industrial Society has been killing Millions of Acres of Fertile Soil with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day for several decades.

    All this Killing / Destruction was absent in Pre-Industrial Society without any Environmentalism.
     
  2. sushil yadav

    sushil yadav Junior Member

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    All Environmentalism in Industrial Society is Pseudo Environmentalism.

    No environment is getting saved in Industrial Society.....Not an iota of environment is getting saved.

    How can environment ever be saved in Industrial Society when Industrial Activity itself is the cause of environmental destruction....Environment can only be saved in a Non-Industrial Society.

    Industrial Society has created hundreds of unnecessary / futile occupations to solve the problems created by Industrialization.....Environmental Activism is one of them.....If thousands of organizations and millions of activists are trying to save environment in Industrial Society it does not mean that environment is getting saved…..There have been three human societies on earth .....Hunter_Gatherer, Agrarian and Industrial.....In Hunter_Gatherer Society there was no Urban Population, entire population was engaged in searching for food.....In Agrarian Society less than 2% of population was Urban, Most of the population was engaged in producing food.....In Industrial Society 50% of world population is producing food for entire population , the remaining 50% population is Urban which has created hundreds of unnecessary occupations to keep itself occupied..... People would go crazy without work…. Environmentalism / Environmental Activism is one such profession [occupation]......[Other unnecessary and destructive professions in Industrial Society include Manufacturing and Marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services, Jobs in Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex and several other jobs]....No Environmentalism was needed in Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian Societies because in the absence of Industrial Activity only limited destruction of environment was possible, so environment got saved automatically.

    If billions of pages of environmental discussion is taking place in Industrial Society it does not mean that environment is getting saved......Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a Disease and Insanity of Industrial Society that invented the Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet.....Animal Species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment through discussion.....They didn't even have a language for discussion…..Billions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument is another harmful waste of Industrial Society just like Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.

    All Environmentalism in Industrial Society is Pseudo Environmentalism.

    No environment is getting saved in Industrial Society.....Not an iota of environment is getting saved.

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    If Urban Society stops all its supplies to Villages......Electricity, Oil, Machinery and Equipment, Villagers will survive forever.

    If Villages stop all their supplies to Cities......Food Grains and Vegetables, Urban Population will die within a month.

    [ Villagers need Electricity, Oil, Machinery and Equipment to produce food for the Urban Population , They would not need these things to produce food for themselves]

    Urban Population is engaged in Unnecessary Work, Meaningless Work, Futile Work and Destructive Work which has led to destruction of most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth.

    For millions of years "Searching For Food" / "Producing Food" were the primary occupations of almost the entire human population in Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian Society.

    There is Zero chance of saving the little environment that is left without fixing the problem of "Urban Population".

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    Animal Species had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Hunter_Gatherer Society had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Agrarian Society had less than Two Percent Urban Population.......All these societies sustained for millions of years collectively.

    The current Industrial Society which has 50% Urban Population worldwide has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years after Industrial Revolution.......Industrial Activity has been promoted by Urban Population......Industrial Activity has been promoted by people who do not produce food.

    This planet can sustain Animal Species.....It can sustain Hunter_Gatherer Human Society......It can sustain Agrarian Human Society......It cannot sustain Industrial Human Society.

    This planet can only sustain food producing societies where almost the entire population is engaged in food production......It cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of world population is growing food for entire population and the remaining 50% living in cities is promoting Industrial Activity.

    Animals saved environment for millions of years because they destroyed it only for food.....Hunter_Gatherer Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food.....Agrarian Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.

    Industrial Society has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems because it destroyed environment for "Thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

    In the Animal Kingdom, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society almost the entire population was engaged in "Searching for Food" / "Growing Food".

    It is the Urban Population that is engaged in and promoting Industrial Activity ......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail & Road network, Air Routes and Shipping Lanes…..They all destroy environment......All Industrial Activity must be stopped.

    Food, clothing and shelter......These are the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans......The only way to save the remaining environment is by reorganizing the entire population so that food production remains the only primary activity just like it was for millions of years before Industrialization.

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    This planet cannot sustain an Industrial / Urban Society......The problem is not Capitalism, The problem is Industrialization / Urbanization.......The solution is not Communism or Socialism, The solution is Non-Industrial / Non-Urban Society.

    Capitalism, Communism or Socialism does not matter at all........What matters is percentage of Urban Population......A Socialist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population will be as Harmful, Destructive and Evil as a Capitalist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population...... A Communist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population will be as Harmful, Destructive and Evil as a Capitalist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population.

    Urban Population is responsible for consumerism.......Urban Population does not produce Food.....It produces thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.

    Consumerism is directly proportional to Percentage of Urban Population.

    Saving environment in Industrial Society is an impossibility......No Industrial Society can save environment.......Communist or Socialist Industrial Societies cannot be less destructive than Capitalist Industrial Societies.

    There cannot be any sustainable Industrial Society........The fault does not lie in Capitalism.....The fault lies in Industrialization.....All Industrial Societies are the same.....All Industrial Societies are equally harmful, destructive and evil.

    Destruction of environment is guaranteed in Industrial Society......The debate over Capitalism, Communism and Socialism in the context of Environmental Crisis is meaningless and absurd.

    Industrialization , Urbanization and Consumerism go hand in hand......They happen together.

    Today 50% of world population is Urban, living in cities...... 50% of world population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% population living in Cities is primarily engaged in production and marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services........Urban population is not producing food, it is producing consumer goods and services.......Even if the entire world is made Communist or Socialist it is not going to bring about any change in consumerism because the percentage of Urban Population will remain the same and it will continue producing and marketing thousands of consumer goods and services.

    In America 90 - 95% of population is Urban......That is why consumerism is so rampant in the US......Even if America is made Communist or Socialist it is not going to reduce consumerism because the percentage of Urban Population would still remain the same.

    In Europe 80 - 90% of population is Urban.

    In China and India consumerism has risen exponentially with the increase in percentage of Urban Population.

    Capitalism, Communism or Socialism does not matter.......What matters is Industrialization and Urbanization which results in Consumerism.

    This planet cannot sustain Industrial Urban Population.......This planet cannot sustain a society that does not produce its own food.

    This planet can sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or an Agrarian Society where almost the entire population is engaged in "searching for food" / producing food......This planet cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% population is producing thousands of consumer goods and services.


    Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
     
  3. sub rosa

    sub rosa Junior Member

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    There is certainly a sad disdain from the permaculture movement, life-boaters, and transition townees, when it comes to talking about radical environmentalism. It's sad b/c we all hold the same beliefs but with permies the bark is lost b/c the dog is hard at work. We're really in the same like minded group but many permies practice pacifism avoiding the radical rhetoric. This is usually b/c of being busy and benefiting from their physical work with the earth. I'm sure radicalism is the last thing a farmer wants to talk about after a hard day on the land (especially with the recent radical weather ;)).

    Still though, many permies consider themselves part of the environmental movement and revolution, but in fact they really the evolution and reformation of human-planetary relations. The revolution comes from the people who focus on actually stopping the march of techno-industrial progress. The radicals consist of about 2% of the enviro-movement, while the permies take up 98%. Every revolution in history hasn't been simply a small group attacking the power structure, it has been a build up and boil over of a new set of ideals. Therefore, permaculture is integral as the bread basket of the environmental movement.

    The problem is that many permies don't recognize that we're in this together and they see themselves as a separate or alternative movement. The ideal that soon enough everyone in the world will (un)willingly turn to permaculture and everything will be okay. That's not the case and at least for now industrial progress marches on. What happens when that starts affecting your land? It already is hurting many farmers with rampant flood and drought. Do you honestly believe in a passive revolution with the tortoise of permaculture beating the hare of industrial ecocide, especially when it's had a 200 year head start?

    I mean honestly, it urks me to hear permies hating on radical environmentalists talking down their rhetoric. Let them be! They're your people, they are your soldiers, they're willing to sacrifice themselves for the fertility of your land. Remember the American Revolution? The patriots setup alternative court and food systems so they didn't need to rely on the British when they were fighting them. Americans have been primarily drinking coffee over tea ever since the Boston Tea Party. The cultural shifts of independence from the power structure are symbiotic to the armed revolution. Stop talking down the radicals with your passive elitism, we're all on the same team!!!
     
  4. sushil yadav

    sushil yadav Junior Member

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    sub rosa,

    Thanks for your post.

    It is good that millions of permaculture activists and organic farmers are not engaged in destructive Industrial Activities but are producing food [which used to be the primary occupation before Industrialization]......But this doesn't stop environmental destruction because billions of other people are engaged in Industrial Activity which is destroying environment moment by moment.....This Industrial Activity needs to be stopped immediately.

    Industrial Activity has been destroying environment for 250 years.....We do not have 250 years left to find a solution.....It is too late already.....Most of the biodiversity and ecosystems have already been destroyed.....If Industrial Activity continues for another 5 or 10 years it will be all over by then.

    The problem is 250 years of Industrialization has led to 50% Urban Population in the world....In Agrarian Society before Industrialization less than 2% of world population was Urban....This 50% Urban Population is responsible for all Industrial Activity - production and marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services.

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    A person is being shot 100 times......Some people are supposed to save the victim.....They do nothing till 99 bullets have hit the victim.....When the last bullet is about to be fired they rush to save the victim, who is already dead by then.

    Industrial Activity has been destroying Biodiversity and Ecosystems for 250 years.....Industrial Society should not have been started in the first place.....Once it came into existence its harmful impact on environment should have alerted people and they should have tried to stop Industrial Activity in the early stages.....If people had tried to stop Industrial Activity 50 years or even 100 years after it began, environment could have been saved because most of the environmental destruction has taken place in the last 50 - 100 years when the rate of Industrialization and Consumerism rose exponentially.....Trying to save environment after 250 years of Industrial Activity is like trying to revive a dead man.....There is hardly any environment left to save.

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    Industrial Society has existed for barely 250 years which comes to almost Zero Percent of Total Human Existence on earth....Humans have spent more than 99.99% of their time on earth in Non-Industrial Societies [Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian].....Industrial Society is an Anomaly....Only Non-Industrial Societies are sustainable.

    A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

    If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

    At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

    We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated or minimized.

    We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Human Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

    The entire society will have to be reorganized / rearranged so that food production remains the only primary occupation of entire population just like it was before Industrialization......The food should of course be produced organically / by non-industrial methods as far as possible.
     
  5. sub rosa

    sub rosa Junior Member

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    I couldn't agree more, and I really appreciate how much knowledge you have on this subject. Could you give your top 10 book recommendations in regards to this topic?
     
  6. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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  7. sub rosa

    sub rosa Junior Member

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    Thank you for the recommendations Ludi. The only thing I would disagree with Jason Godesky on is that hierarchy is an unnecessary evil. This was a main theme of the commune movement in the late 60s-early 70s. Most of the communes then didn't last longer than a couple years though. They realized that hierarchy is inevitable even in small communities b/c there is always people with stronger personalities who take charge. Also, there was a lot of hazing that happened in those communes which is a direct example of hierarchy. I mean a lot of the idealists back then expected an egalitarian enigma and were met with the opposite. Even in today's communes you can always sense the hierarchy even when their decisions are made by group consensus.

    A lot of anarcho-primitivists believe this same egalitarian idea of primitive tribal society b/c they take out of context politically correct anthropology. When reading mainstream PC anthropology over guys who actually gave first hand account with primitives there is bias towards an ideal state. The reality is that almost all primitive groups had a sense of hierarchy if they were sedentary. The only groups that were less hierarchical were the nomads. Hierarchy is a natural phenomena of sedentary groups and can be healthy when based on character instead of material wealth.

    I think sometimes primitivist writers get too ideal as though this life was the egalitarian garden of eden, which is far from the truth.
     
  8. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    I chose to take personal responsibility, and, besides, I'm not really the activist type. I've always hated having points of view forced down my throat, and I'm sure other people feel the same way. I would think that the biggest struggle in creating a less industrial society is in making nature "sexy" again. I've spent almost 2 years trying to figure out how to make the front yard a functional, closed loop system while it still being relatively attractive(and will likely spend more time at it). I think an attractive permaculture system in the front yard would have more of an impact than telling people they're doing it wrong.

    Trying to change peoples' ways who have been born and raised(with multiple generations) during the industrial revolution(including the past 60 odd years of the chemical war against nature) will be difficult to say the least. Show people that growing their own food can be fun and attractive, while also showing them how to save money by retrofitting their homes would be the way to go. I do like positivism on a number of levels.

    If someone wants to learn about gardening, I will always talk with them. I leave books and magazines laying around work, and sometimes that is enough to peak someones interest. Some people would think this is rather obvious, but I believe that urban and suburban culture is the main "battleground" for swaying peoples' thinking. These are the folks that are angry, bitter and completely disassociated with their food production and nature in general. They're looking for something to fill the nature void that they now have, but nothing will really do that except for nature. We are part of nature, not separate from or above. Simply put, people need to be re-educated. Gadgets, gizmos, frozen dinners and other "things" are not the answer to happiness, and that is obvious with the amount of "stuff" people accrue over their life spans and are still not happy. I'm no different.

    Right now, the human population is unsustainable. I don't care how much spiel the agroindustry puts out, it simply isn't sustainable. We're going to run out of resources, and fast, trying to feed, medicate, cloth and shelter all these people and future generations. That's not even going into things like electricity, transportation, running water, sewer systems, etc. Many more people will live and die in misery.

    Saving a diverse range of seeds of open pollinated crops, propagating plants that can take years to grow from seed, giving away plants for free, showing people how to grow food, showing people how to close the energy/nutrient cycles in their own yard, teaching people how to raise livestock and explaining how retrofitting a house works for your area are all good ways to reduce the amount of industrialization. It won't be fast, but at least it's doable by yourself and moves things forward in a positive way.

    While I agree that industrialization is a societal evil, I have to disagree on the methods to combat it. The ends don't justify the means.
     
  9. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    I think as much as re-educated, as you say people need to see a different way to live, which could be permaculture. People can't change unless they have something to change TO, and I think that is where some kinds of activism have failed, because they tell people they are wrong and bad for living the way they do, but they do not provide any models for a different way to live that is good and right.
     
  10. sub rosa

    sub rosa Junior Member

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    I disagree with you guys. I think you're relying on a false hope that the world will suddenly wake up to permaculture. & BTW, you are just as much an acitivist being a permaculture practitioner as the green radicals. Also, there are many green radicals who have permaculture setups themselves. Like I said in my post before it's not an 'us vs them' situation we're all on the same team. In fact, your post Unmutual is a great example of what I said before that many permies are too busy providing for themselves to care about ratical rhetoric. What happens when you cannot provide for yourself due to the ecocide of the industrial system? You can make yourself a permaculture fortress but it's no match to radical runaway climate change.

    Also, real activists are not worried about changing others ways or telling them what they're doing wrong. They know that personal choice has little to no effect on the industrial system. That's why radical activists concentrate on direct action against the corporate/industrial elite. Yeah sure, you'll always get your parrot talkin' activists who try pushing super fluos issues down your throat like factory farming. But real activists know that this is irrelevant and just one of the MANY MANY results of the industrial system. If anything I hear more permies trying to convert people or tell them their lifestyle is wrong, you proved it by saying you subliminally push gardening on your co-workers. Also, I find people that develop a deep ecological understanding go to a permaculture farm internship and then is force fed all these pacifist elitisms. Many permies are up on this pacifist high horse that what they are doing is the real form of activism seperate from those stupid green radicals. But what happens when you can't even care to your own land b/c the industrial system has destroyed the climate? It's already done this with all the droughts and floods in america...

    I do agree that people wont change if they don't have something to change to, but most people don't have the time or resources to change to permaculture. Activism has not failed in showing what we need to change, in fact it's been the only beacon of light over the past 3,000 yrs of civilization... They do in fact give models for a different way to coinhabit the planet. You need to research activism before throwing out general statements that they've failed. Just take one glance at South America over the past decade...
     
  11. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    I don't believe in radical activism. I try to live life in a way that is 'right ' and sustainable and that lightens my footprint on the earth. If by living this way I influence others by example then that is an additional positive outcome. I admire individuals and collectives which have established sites or systems that demonstrate to others an alternative way of living. I believe a moderate 'middle path' is the right approach concentrating on responsibility for our own lives first. I have consumer choices to make and that is a powerful way of responding personally to the financial, agricultural, manufacturing systems of today.

    But I always bear in mind that the earth is not static, it is continually evolving, changing....our place, influence and impact is part of this flux. The existence of homo sapiens will pass too as will most of the species that currently co-exist alongside us. Yes, we may hasten the end of many and we may force the adaptation of many more by our influence on climate change.
    We are but a short paragraph in the narrative of the earth. Long after our demise the evolution will continue. So I try to appreciate what is now, to live simply and not to get too attached to trying to save the world as we know it.
     
  12. sushil yadav

    sushil yadav Junior Member

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    "Be the change you wish to see in the world"

    This quote of Mahatma Gandhi can be seen in many social and environmental forums.

    Gandhi had advocated small / sustainable rural communities.

    If Gandhi were to return to India today he would die from shock on seeing the scale of Industrialization, Urbanization and Consumerism in India.

    If the concept did not work in India how can it ever work elsewhere in the world???

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    Environment does'nt get saved if a few people live a simple life.....It does'nt get saved if a few thousand people live a simple life......It does'nt get saved if a few million people live a simple life.....It does'nt get saved even if a few billion people live a simple life [which is happening right now.....Out of 7 billion people roughly half, about 3.5 billion are already living a simple life in Asia, Africa and South America .......but this does'nt save the environment......because the rest 3.5 billion people all over the world are living a highly consumerist life which is enough to destroy all ecosystems.

    The entire world has to live a simple life...... In animal kingdom all animals lived a simple life.....In Hunter_Gatherer Society all people lived a simple life......In Agrarian Society almost all people lived a simple life.

    In a non-industrial society simple living happens automatically....one does not have to make efforts to live a simple life. In a non-industrial society environment gets saved automatically....one does not have to make efforts to save environment.

    An Industrial Society produces thousands of consumer goods in addition to food, clothing and shelter.....therefore simple living by entire society is impossible.
     
  13. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    We are moving inexorably towards greater and greater challenges. Whether the wheel eventually turns full circle to pre-industrialisation is something I may or may not live to see. Regardless, the earth will continue to evolve. Even without our desecration of the earth, if we lived in small numbers and lightly on the world, it would all pass. The climate will continue to change back and forth, earth surface processes stop for no man.
    I do not for one minute say this as an excuse or justification to 'live it up' while we can. But what is it we actually aim for? Is it to maintain the greatest biodiversity on the planet for as long as possible? Is it to maintain homo sapiens on the earth for as long as possible? What would our ideal planet and existence look like?
     
  14. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Be the change you wish to see in the world doesn't mean... live in small communities and the world will be 'saved'.

    It isn't about 'saving' the world, it's not really even about changing 'the' world. It's about being the change that you wish to see. It's not about getting other people to be the change that you wish to see. If the world changes because of your changes, that is all well and good, but it's not the true magic of Gandhi's words.

    It's about living an authentic life. An authentic life lived, is no more or less valuable due to the perceived merits of it's outcomes.

    Industrial society does not do anywhere near as much damage to the mind as does an inauthentic life.

    That's my opinion anyways.
     
  15. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    But what is an authentic life as opposed to a non-authentic life? What defines an authentic life?
     
  16. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    An authentic life is one lived in accordance with the principles that you hold. So it is different for everyone.
     
  17. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    What do you think? What would you consider as an authentic life for yourself?

    I guess I would start by including somewhere in the 'definition' as.. a life lived according to your own inner truth. It would involve a deep exploration for and of that inner truth and then a physical life of action based on that inner truth.
     
  18. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Yeah, that's kinda what I was on about, but more succinctly put :)
     
  19. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    I guess that means that one has to accept there will be a whole bunch of people whose principals that they live their authentic life by may be detrimental to a society based on permaculture?
     
  20. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I suspect that when the 'deep exploration for and of the persons inner truth' is involved then more often than not it would be in line with many of the permaculture principles.

    To imagine that everyone is interested in permaculture as a viable future is naive though, yes. I have family members who are just as certain that scientific endeavour will deliver us endless cold fusion energy - that we can science ourselves or of any strife. As certain perhaps as I am that permaculture runs parallel with my authentic life.
     

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