A promotion to what? I'm worried now. Maybe Geoff thought up all his good non-garden ideas in a garden. Kimbo, I understand the centrality of design in permaculture, and perhaps that is the criticism of gardening (I see this criticism commonly, here on the PRI forum, in the US, on the UK forum: that people are gardening and calling it pc but they haven't designed so much permaculturally speaking). My problem is that the people I know who are gardening and calling it permaculture* are still moving in the right direction. Many of them in very good ways. They're not calling themselves PC designers or consultants, so why does it matter? *they've read about permaculture and seen 'genuine' permaculture and are trying to emulate this in their own way. But they're not going to do a PDC no matter how much you or Craig or Bill or whoever complains. Unless pc reaches the masses on their own terms, it won't reach them. I don't understand the problem, or at least I think the problem isn't corruption of pc so much as corruption of the dream. I'm still waiting for some concrete examples so I can understand what you and Peter and everyone means.