improving soil - how do i improve soil

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by trish, Jan 8, 2004.

  1. trish

    trish Junior Member

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    hi, new to this, but have recently moved to Meekatharra in central eastern WA and am wanting to grow veges and herbs as the local supply is very limited/old by the time we get it. Problem is we have plenty of room, but am unable to find any local manure sources to improve the soil due to the drought. the local school has llamas and a pig but they use all of this for their own purposes. what are the best options from the bagged section in a reasonably limited produce store (dynamic lifter is about all they have). or can i improve the soil another way. the soil we have is very very red and very very dry although we have good access to water. are there any books/web sites to be recommended on dry area growing.
    thanks heaps for any hints.
     
  2. Chook Nut

    Chook Nut Junior Member

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    Hi Trish,

    Welcome to the forum, i hope you find it helpful for you.

    I use all my own chicken manure.... so raising chickens may be an option for you or you may like to grow 'green manure'. These are cover crops that are grown and dug into an area you wish to improve.

    I am not much help as to what cover crops would be suitable for you in your area... there is a fella on this forum that can provide you with that info when he reads it. Or you can go to Google website and type in 'cover crop' or 'green manure' and get tons of info. Also, your local produce store should be able to provide you with seeds. They may know places where you can source manures from locals.

    Good luck and let us know how you get on.

    Dave
     
  3. alextacy

    alextacy Junior Member

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    Hi Trish,

    you may like to contact the Environmental Technology Centre at Murdoch University, Perth. They have done several permaculture based projects with remote communities in WA, from the Kimberly to the Victoria desert, and should be able to provide some advice on improving soil in your area.

    They also have lots of information on sustainable technologies, design for arid environments, etc. Also you can get plenty of good references about grey water systems from these guys. They are experts in this field, and have installed many transpiration-evaporation trenches for grey water recycling and growing mulch & food plants as a by-products.
    The trans-evaporation trenches are reletively easy to install and may provide a solution to some of your mulch needs (what's more you could even get the rest of the town onto it!)

    Their website is https://wwwies.murdoch.edu.au/etc/

    Also, have a read through the proceedings of the 6th international permaculture convergence - there is a bit of information in their about converting arid soils and hardpan into productive land using worms and chooks.

    https://rosneath.com.au/ipc6/

    It may be worth growing in raised beds so you keep your good soil in one place and don't have to get blisters and sun burn trying to break up rock hard ground.

    Plant hardy ground covers where you can, any local trees and use rocks for mulch - anything to cover the soil and provide unexposed habitat for soil microbes where a little moisture may collect.

    Water harvesting strategies are really important. The PC designers manual by Bill Mollison (1988) has a good chapter on arid envrionments and water harvesting strategies are discussed in detail. Have look at Permaculture II (also by Bill Mollison) as that has a chapter around desert living / remote communities in Australia.

    To collect organic matter you can always ask your neighbours for their kitchen scraps and lawn clippings (I'm sure there is someone that thinks they have to use their precious water to grow lawn in Meeka, there is everywhere else!) and put them through worm farms, chooks, compost bins, etc.
    The neighbours may think you're a bit mad, but they won't when you are giving them eggs, toms, watermelon, etc!

    Good luck!

    Alexis
     
  4. trish

    trish Junior Member

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    thanks heaps, the conference website was riveting and i have since discovered that we have a greywater recycle thing in the back yard that spurts water out of long forgotten pipes when the washing machine is finished. shall attempt a few of your ideas, and have a lot of work to redirect the grey water. hoping to get some chooks and have also found a long forgotten garden that has some decent soil under the weeds. i am keen to get in and get it started .....if only it wasn't still 35 degrees at 3 in the morning......
    cheers trish
     
  5. coralaus

    coralaus New Member

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    Hello Trish,
    I am currently using bagass sugar cane mulch. I was told that lucene hay is terrific as it has nitrogen and composts down well. As Chook said chook and horse poo also does wonders when added to the mulch.
    Cheers,
    Coral.
     
  6. alextacy

    alextacy Junior Member

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    Hi again Trish,

    Just an idea - it would probably be good NOT to pull the weeds out where the good soil is. The reason the soil is a bit better is that those weeds are there. If you pull them out, the soil will lose the structure and the protection provided by the roots and mulching action of the aerial parts.

    Probably best to mulch around the weeds after heavily watering them, and wait until the cooler months of the year to plant into that area. Sounds strange looking after weeds like that(!) but they will be what is keeping that soil good. Anything that you put in at this time of year will be as good as dead in Meeka.

    Sounds like you are itching to get going, but probably best to spend the hot summer researching and planning your system, and get down to it as the sun retreats (gardening in that sort of heat with little shade established is not that nice anyway!)

    Cheers

    A
     
  7. trish

    trish Junior Member

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    thanks alexis,
    u are right i think, as i started digging weeds (then got bogged down by the heat) now the hot winds have started and that little patch i did do has dried out quite badly. have found a large grass clipping pile and shall do as u suggest cover the bed with these and some manure i managed to source and watch and wait with a cold beer in my hand.
    thanks heaps.
    trish :D
     
  8. Jo Bodey

    Jo Bodey New Member

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    Hi Trish - I'm new too and haven't even introduced myself yet, (or asked my numerous questions!), but I thought I'd put in my 2c worth. There is a drylands permaculture research farm in Geraldton - Julie Firth - Yilgarn Traders. She has a handy little book of garden guidelines for dryland coastal regions, a lot of which would be helpful to you - for browsing in the shade with a tinny until it cools down a bit! ISBN 0 646 27584 4. She has a species list suitable for hot dry areas and a herb and seed catalogue, and is good for advice. I find a lot of stuff we want in the west, (cover/green manure crops I found), isn't available from interstate and she has alternatives.

    On the soil improvement question - I saw a Gardening Australia prog once on a woman with a thriving garden on a property in the Gascoyne - she had built the soil up with sheep carcasses and wool! She would bury a dead sheep and leave it to rot down and plant a tree on the spot, mulched with wool and dags. I'm not sure if you have a lot of sheep up there - more cattle as I remember - I used to drive through all the time on my way to Jigalong. The trees and shrubs established shade/shelter and then she interplanted. I've also read about people using roadkill in that way - if you have a strong stomach and a ute - LOL!

    Have you tried the local supermarket/pubs for waste vegie scraps for compost, also the local pony club - but beware of poop from recently wormed horses as it will kill all worms!

    Regards

    Jo
     
  9. BT Benjaminson

    BT Benjaminson Junior Member

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    If you have any outdoor space under (or almost under) some structure you can try growing there during the summer, perhaps in pots dug into the ground to conserve water. If your weeds are tall enough they might provide suffient shade for veggie seedlings interplanted with them--another reason not to pull out those weeds so fast.
    We got a nice crop of tomatoes from volunteer plants that started themselves in very shady places near the house, mid-summer last year (and our summers are hot, too, here in Israel).
    Or you can start some veggie seeds inside the house or in the shade and plant them out when the weather cools, for fall crops. You can plant in waves throughout the summer, by the end of the summer the seeds you'll be planting should be for winter crops (leaf and root crops.)
     
  10. Guest

    Finding resources is the best thing you can do - especially if you can get them for free. For your sandy soil, you really need organic matter more than ‘fertilizer’. Phone the local council and see if you can get sea-weed from the beach. It takes a while to break down, but it is a wonderful soil conditioner/mulch. Also see if you can find a business that shreds paper. This breaks down into great organic matter. Contact your local lawn-mowing person and ask them if they would give you their lawn clippings. You could then layer paper, sea weed, grass clippings and organic lifter to make a no dig garden bed. Just put each layer on the soil with a bit of dynamic lifter and/or blood and bone between each layer. Keep it well watered and in that climate it should break down quickly into a fantastic soil.
     
  11. trish

    trish Junior Member

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    Thanks heaps for the suggestions, not sure about the sheep and road kill... but i'm sure the dog would love it - maybe he could dig the ground for me! Thanks for the Geraldton contact, we go there about once a month or so, so shall look her up. have access to heaps of shredded paper and horse manure so shall slowly build up the beds. also will try the seed indoor method and see what happens.

    as a note.....thank god it has started raining! a few storms and now 2 days solid of showers......forgotten what clouds looked like. Hopefully the temperature will stay in the 30's now instead of the 40's and i am going to do some planting in the rain :laugh:

    Cheers everyone
    Trish
     
  12. muttabuttasaurus

    muttabuttasaurus Junior Member

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    Seaweed? In meekatharra? Maybe 360 000 000 years ago, right? Isn't Meeka about 500 km's or more inland? Well, I wish I could get some here in the high desert of New Mexico but I don't think the transport would make it sustainable unfortunately.
     
  13. Snake

    Snake Junior Member

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    G'day Trish,

    We are also in sunny Meekatharra and endeavouring to do much the same as you, for the same reasons. I would echo mtbtsaurus's remarks re: seaweed - it has indeed been a little while since it would have been readily available here! That said, I am cultivating 'weed tea' with some help from a couple of lumps of kelp brought back from our last visit to the coast, which smells remarkably like the "juice" from our worm farm, so I hope that is positive!

    We would be happy to discuss the challenges of gardening here with you - give Karen or me a call on 9981 1549.

    By the way, I have recently discovered that our soil is very alkaline - pH 8-9 from the couple of samples I have tested. The best solution to this according to most references seems to be application of sulphur, although none of them seem to indicate that recovery from such a high pH is achievable; Linda Woodrow advocates the incorporation of organic material as the solution to either acid or alkalinity problems so that is what we are trying to concentrate on. Does anyone out there know whether the alkalinity may arise from heavy watering with hard water - the water here is high in both calcium and magnesium salts, and the temperatures/low humidity cook most things in the ground so that daily watering is necessary, even under shadecloth.

    Cheers,

    Mark Goodman
     
  14. muttabuttasaurus

    muttabuttasaurus Junior Member

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    Snake,
    From my understanding, the high alkalinity of your soil could be the result of hard water and/or mineral content of the soil itself.
    If you have sandy soil one solution might be to water heavily and leach out the salts that are responsible for the basic ph. This is less likely to work in clay soils. Of course, if you are irrigating with ground water and you flush your salts down into your well you're not really getting anywhere are you?
    Around here (in southern NM) they do add amazing amounts of sulphur to irrigation water because of the alkaline water. I don't know what the long term effects of this are on ground water or other aspects of the ecology but it does work in terms of short term results in pecans, chile, alfalfa and cotton.
    I would think that adding organic matter would generally have to be a good thing although some organic matter may be higher in salts than others?
    Obviously I am no expert and you should take my comments with a big grain of salt.

    ps. I guess trees might be part of the solution, bringing more rainfall, etc.
     

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