I want to believe.......

Discussion in 'General chat' started by zzsstt, Feb 11, 2009.

  1. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    Well,

    For me the brief comment to your thoughts is "The only constant IS change".

    I think there are a couple of ways to look at the concept of 'permanent agriculture'. The first I see as a form of structured agriculture - whereby everything is carried out year after year or slightly longer cycles according to a fixed set of beliefs and practices. In essence (with some degree of flexibility) the same crops, same livestock, same techniques used year in and year out i.e. Once a cattle farm always a cattle farm.This approach is really destined to fail over an extended period, due to the ever changing nature of the Earth and society. This is illustrated by the 'climate change' that we are said to be experiencing, and whether man is responsible or not really doesn't change the fact that the change is happening. 'Traditional' or 'chemical' farming in recent years does seem to be increasingly difficult to sustain . And not only does the physical climate change but so does the social, political and economic climate change. Change is inevitable...

    And this brings me to the second way you could consider the idea of 'Permanent Agriculture' - a more theoretical form I guess would be a way to describe it. This would take advantage of change, move with change, perhaps even anticipate change and possible drive change. In this view one would see the farm or land as having many different lives across time, taking advantage of the pulses of nature (as described in David Holmgren's works). The permanence comes not so much from a fixed set of products but a changing set that are continuous and complimentary over many cycles. For example moving from forestry, to pasture and cropping, to grazing etc etc. I'm not claiming that any of this actually works beyond theory or that it is practical but it does seem to promote different degrees of stewardship over the land.

    I dunno, perhaps that is just a meaningless ramble.

    In the end one could say that we do live in the only culture that is appropriate for THIS amount of people with THIS mindset in THIS current climate at THIS time. That we are a part of the ever changing nature of things. I think one of the traps that 'permaculturists' can fall into is that while believing they are working WITH nature, they actually subconsciously believe they exist outside of nature - super-natural so to speak. I think if we hold on to the dogma of permaculture we are really only falling into the same trap that all those who came before us did - Those who believed in Eugenics, in Economics, in what ever other social structure that make man feel more powerful at the time, as though he has control over nature.

    I think to a certain extent we need to step out of each others way and lead ourselves as individuals to our own individual truth. Let others take their own path without judging them (usually based on our own short comings). Nature will find a way to move to the next stable state. I plan on enjoying the time in between and if in this lifetime I see something that is akin to Permaculture Nirvana (what ever that might really be), well that's great. But, I'm not gonna sweat it too much because I know that some other change is just around the corner :wink:

    Do warewolves ever evolve to become immune to silver bullets?

    Grahame
     
  2. nsainsbury

    nsainsbury Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    As a thought on fertilizers and what not, I remember hearing the awards for sugar growers in the Burdekin region last year. The bloke who won for having the highest average sugar content was asked about his fertilizer regime and levels etc. Responded with don't use any. He used mill mud, a by-product of the processing. He had just bought a new farm and the interviewer pretty much stated it would be a while before he saw similar results. The response was about 2 or 3 years using the same process.
    I guess my point is, like everything else, agriculture is still developing and like everything else what everyone else is doing is not always right. This includes permaculture. I would be guessing Bill and others who were involved in PM's development never expected to have all of the answers.
    Personally I hope we never reach the ideal that PM presents. We would not be corresponding like this and what would happen to international rugby?
     
  3. zzsstt

    zzsstt Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    Change is indeed constant, and "conventional" farming practices are changing constantly. In the last 20 years we have moved from ploughing and stubble burning to direct drilling and stubble retention with controlled traffic farming using GPS guidance. It is now recognised that a pasture phase and the use of legumes is very beneficial for soil building and reduced nitrogen inputs. Irrigation practices have changed to make better use of water and power. Some shortcomings in (say) 40 year old practices have been identified, and are being addressed.

    As you say, society is also constantly changing. However never before has society been so totally disconnected from its "roots", and I personally believe this is responsible for much of the current "problem". In our current society, the majority of people live in cities, as did their parents. This has resulted in two things. Firstly a small number of people have to produce cheap food for a large number of city dwellers. Secondly, and this is the real issue, those city dwellers largely have no idea how their food is produced. I often read comments about how farmers are destroying the soil or whatever, and more often than not they are from people who have never been outside the city. How do they know? These same people want farmers to stop "ruining the land" and return it to "native vegetation". I have found myself wondering what these people will eat when there are no farms to produce food, but then I was given two "solutions". The first was "Australia is a rich country, we can afford to import our food". Air-freighting food for 25 million people? Hmmm. The second answer, actually in a discussion about killing animals for food, was that the person in question "did not understand why anybody needed to kill animals for food when they could buy meat at a supermarket". I kid u not!

    The issue is that when food, in most peoples minds, comes not from farms but from supermarkets, the common sense view that we should protect and support farmers evaporates. At that time it is very easy to manipulate issues to suit other purposes. So "analysis" can be carried out to prove whatever we want to prove, and people will believe it because a/ they believe the media, b/ they have no knowledge or information to cause them to question it and c/ it's nice to know that whatever the problem is, "it's someone elses fault".

    So we can, for whatever motive, persuade people that eating meat is bad for the environment, or growing wheat is bad, or that clearing regrowth ("weeds") is bad.

    The thing that worries me most is that people in the main seem not to question the "facts", even when they are so bizarrely and (to me at least) obviously suspicious. For example, in the face of "duopoly" and market manipulation claims, Australia's only two supermarket chains are quoting a research group who have "proved" that our two supermarket chains have 27% (Woolworths) and 20% (Coles) of the fresh fruit and vegetable sales. So between them they have 47%. And this doesn't strike anybody as suspicious? In my area the local towns support an area population of about 18,500 people. 47% of those people (apparently) get their vegies at Coles and Woolies. This means that the other 53% (say 9500 people) are buying all their fresh fruit and vegies from the guy selling home grown produce from the back of his car just outside the town limits. They must be, because other than the two Supermarkets he's the only other vendor in the area. With the money he must be making supplying the entire veg requirements of 9500 people, you'd think he'd upgrade the knackered old ute he drives!

    Change is constant. Climate change is real. The thing is that the climate has always changed. At present we seem to have forgotten that, and are acting like it has always been constant and now is suddenly changing.

    The idea of changing products is actually what farmers do anyway. Admittedly forestry is largely a nonstarter, simply because it ties up a vast amount of land for a very long time with (historically) very little usable output. However the rest of the farm would most certainly have a rotation involving at least a ceral crop and grazing/pasture phase. These days it is also likely to have a legume crop in addition to legumes in the pasture phase, and quite possibly brassicas in there as well. These rotations have always existed in farming to provide disease breaks and fertility building.
     
  4. spirited

    spirited Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    There's so much interesting information & discussion on this topic I have merely browsed it affording it only a little time necessary to read it all. However I would like to add a bit of 'evidence' as to the viability of permaculture as a commercially sustainable venture. Has anyone mentioned 'The Food Forest' at Gawler in South Australia?

    Yes, the owners have always had an income from outside the property which has supported the development over the years but I would expect the property yields an adequate if not generous income from produce these days. They produce small commercial quantities of pistacios, pecans, carob & diverse garden produce which is sold at farmers markets along with an array of value added products such as apple cider & wine. The courses they run would serve both as a source of labour for running the proerty & developments as well as part of the sum of the financial yield. They have a very diverse range of enterprises going on there. Mostly though the property is now self sustaining because of the implementaion of permaculture design from the start. At the Australiasian Permaculture Convergence (APC9), David Holmgren referred to the Food Forest as the best permaculture demonstration site in Australia. Having been an occasional visitor over the last 20 years I have seen the progress of the farm's development. It's very inspiring. An excellent example of what can be achieved using permaculture principles for designing with. It is a privately owned & operated endeavour of one family who purchased an essentially vacant rural 'hobby farm' and the original homestead about 25-30 years ago. Google the food forest to check it out.

    Bill Mollison is somewhat prone to extremes & exaggeration......he's a fabulous story teller. The ideal of broadcasting seeds and creating a self sufficient forest garden in a month or a season is a good example of this. What permaculture is though is a system for designing towards sustainability. We can use the principles to make any situation more sustainable even if it will never be completely self sustaining. No man is an island! Would you be any better off to use another design system?

    I don't think systems really get less labour intensive over time but the labour you do is different. In the early stages of development it will involve lots of planting and building/construction. This will probably require lots of inputs from outside of the planned system. In the later stages there will be harvesting, maintenance and preserving which tends to cycle energy about in the system and yield some surplus to distribute out of the system. This is the same for any farm type venture whether or not you use permaculture which is really just a system for designing afterall. The social & economic structures you develop in your given situation are just other aspects to applying the principles towards sustainability, if you work with others in that direction. The alternative is to continue as we do presently. If we change nothing in our lives, our way of doing things, we will affect no change either. To this end we must be the change we wish to see in the world. For me it is about living by the ethics of permaculture within my ability to do so. Permaculture is not just an ideal. The practices do effect change towards greater sustainability to the degree with which it is applied. Ultimately though, permaculture is a design system not actually the ideals it espouses.
     
  5. Luisa

    Luisa Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    I agree. This is what I'm finding. I worked full time and had no time to do work on the property but had $$ to employ contractors (but no time to be there in their work hours). Now I"m part time with time to devote but no cash.

    My concern is that the establishment phase is the drain. Once it's established, fine, maybe less labour to maintain it. But how do you get the resources to establish? And on top of that learning all the skills while working to bring in the $$ to keep the whole thing going; it gets tiring.

    I guess if we had a true PC society it would be easier but we are trying to do PC in a non PC society. You can't cross a chasm in 2 easy steps.
     
  6. spirited

    spirited Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    A lot of establishment, of plants at least, doesn't have to be expensive. If there are any others in your area who have an interest or experience in gardening get to know them so you can gleen & swap materials, seed and knowledge with them. There are a lot of garden clubs around. Even just looking over peoples fences you can see who likes gardens and I've found most gardeners are a friendly bunch happy to give a handful of seeds, some cuttings and a story or two.

    Collect seeds from anywhere you can: your own garden, street trees, bits hanging over fences. Learn to propagate plants in as many different ways as possible; seed, soft & hard wood cuttings, root division. Plant anything you get hold of including the seeds from store bought fruits. You can always graft a more desirable variety onto the rootstock. I've also bought lots of plants very cheaply at auctions & garage sales. Also most nurseries and plant dept. in supermarkets etc. often have discounted sick plants & seedlings. You win some, you lose some but it's another cheap way of building diversity in your system.

    Auctions are a great source for lots of interesting materials which can be used creatively in the development of properties. If you look around your area there are probably lots of resources available freely or cheaply for the collecting. I've been able to collect loads of rocks, firewood, mulch & composting materials. As I've never really had much in the line of paid employment over the last 20 years I've become very good at establishing things cheaply using whatever resources are available to me. I've learned a lot from books but more from trial & error. Whilst it is time consuming it's also a very fine quality of life.

    I'm thinking about starting a permaculture consultancy business whereby after the initial designing process I work with clients to develop the plans, build gardens etc. teaching them necessary skills like plant propagation, seed collecting etc then also how to preserve & use the products. Do you think this is a service beginner gardeners & permies would find useful? It's not my intention to become a gardener for anyone but to work alongside people and share my knowledge & skills with them. It could be a way of shortening the learning curve that is necessary during the establishment phase of developing a property.
     
  7. Tim Auld

    Tim Auld Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    Hi spirited,

    Greetings from a fellow South Aussie (living in Brisbane)! Some good suggestions there for being resourceful. I'm interested in your business ideas and would give some feedback, but I think it belongs in a separate thread, to do it justice. This one is long and wandering.

    Cheers,
    Tim
     
  8. aslanded

    aslanded Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    Well I couldnt sleep at 4am and Just spent 3 hours enjoying this.

    zzsstt, many thanks for your thorough research and clear analysis.

    I have 20 acres, which I am currently 'converting' to permaculture, but what this really means is I'm going to sustainably harvest the 15 acres of bush for fuel, timber and growing mushrooms, and have a few pigs and cows, a veggie patch and a bunch of fruit and nut trees while providing a lot of habitat for wildlife on the land and in the ponds I've created. I'm also working the 40 hour week, and as much as I'd like to think I could live off the land I think its just something to make me feel better while I mutter to myself at work.

    Its also a hell of a lot of work, but I love it and it keeps me fit. Realistically I can see theres no way that its most peoples cup of tea, and thats not necessarily a bad thing as somebody has to make and maintain all the great technology I enjoy. I'm grateful then to people like you who provide the majority of the people with the majority of the food, because as its been noted, it keeps them from getting medieval on our asses and going on raiding parties in the county side. I have no illusions of a revolution being positive in any way or even allowed. Theres probably a better chance of mass extermination of the excess peoples of the world than the powerful letting it go.

    I dont think that permaculture has no place though. As producers of high value specialty foods which require more attention it excels.

    Companion planting to get higher yields for smaller areas is useful. This also incorporates the use of fungi to convert soil nutrients for plants and Paul Stamets is someone definitely worth reading up on if you're interested.

    It seems to me that what we are really trying to achieve with pemaculture is what the native people were doing for the last few hundred thousand years, before the western industrialized man came along with his better weapons and an immune system toughened by living in squalor and filth. Personally I think it would have been a great lifestyle and I'm pretty sure I'd have been a deserter when my ship reached Tahiti....

    Personally I'm aiming for some sort of low energy traditional style lifestyle with influences from the European peasants, ie raise and smoke your own pigs, grow veggies and mushrooms, make cheese, eat good food, wine and home brew, while still working in the provincial capitals. Also some influences from asia in terms of growing bamboo, shitake and oyster mushrooms, their architecture and the ways in which their traditional landholders farmed before industrialization and were capable of providing huge excesses to feed their cities. Maintaining the ecosystems such as frogs and all the other creatures in balance is very important.

    Just a few thoughts! Thanks for the great insights.
     
  9. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    "I want to believe..." IN THE CUBAN EXAMPLE?

    G'day All :)

    Taking a break from my studies, and decided to finally read from (I can't admit to reading it all - my time will just not stretch that far. But a big thank you to all who have contributed thus far) this thread.

    I'm currently writing a paper: "Cuban Agricultural Practices post-1990 (working title)".

    I've always wanted to learn more about the Cuban experience post-1990 (or after the collapse of the Soviet Bloc, and subsequently the disolving of the import substitution agricultural model that Cuba relied on in partnership with mostly the USSR); a lot of my earlier research had focussed on the earlier period of the Revolutionary Period (1959 to 1990), and the time had come to tie in the Cuban experience with my knowledge of permaculture.

    My findings thus far:

    Cuba can provide us with an example of how we (the 'first' or 'western' world) can make the transition from a largely fossil-based input dependent, rural, mechanised and unsustainable agricultural sector, to one that is more urban, organic, localised (permaculture-based), naturally cyclic and essentially, sustainable.

    However, where the cuban agricultural experience really differs from that of the 'western' model, is within the social sector: That being, Cuban society (on the whole) remains 'collectively'-orientated, whereas 'western' society continues to follow a neo-liberalist, 'individualist' model.

    What remains to be seen is this: Can we ('western society', and those that wish to emulate us - i.e. Asian/Pacific nation states) give up our pursuit of the competitive model (which acts to the detriment of us all, through continued globe-wide environmental degredation), and adopt a more sustainable, collective ('we are all in this together') way forward?

    Some authors (see: reference list) suggest that Cuba too will follow the western model once Fidel dies. However, I remain hopeful that Raul will be able to help the Cuban people find the balance and achieve a truly civil society; one that exists within an eco-communalist (permaculturalist?) framework.

    We live in interesting times, my friends. Even as I write this brief note tonight, there is a movement within the USA that is challenged with the task of bringing Cuba back into the 'capitalist' fold. But will Cuba comply, or will it continue to provide us with a (permuculturalist?) model for working towards a more sustainable agricultural sector? Only time will tell.

    Cheerio, Mark.

    Reference list (in part):

    Alteri, M., et al. ‘The greening of the "Barios": Urban Agriculture for Food Security in Cuba’, Agriculture and Human Values, vol. 16, (1999), pp. 131-140.

    BBC, Timeline: Cuba, (2008), retrieved March 3 2009, from BBC News: https://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pageto ... 203355.stm

    Benjamin, M. & Rosset, P., The Greening of the Revolution: Cuba's Experiment with Organic Agriculture, Melbourne, Ocean Press, 1994.

    Bray, D. & Bray, M., ‘The Cuban Revolution and World Change’, Latin American Perspectives, vol. 29, no. 3, (2002), pp.3-17.

    Burchardt, H-J., ‘Contours of the Future: The New Social Dynamics in Cuba’, Latin American Perspectives, vol. 29, no. 3, (2002), pp. 57-74.

    Deere, C., ‘Reforming Cuban Agriculture’, Development and Change, vol. 28, (1997), pp. 649-69.

    Dilla, H. & Oxhorn, P., ‘The Virtues and Misfortunes of Civil Society in Cuba’, Latin American Perspectives, vol. 29, no. 4, (2002), pp. 11-30.

    Gott, R., Cuba: A New History, New Haven, Yale Nota Bene, 2005.

    Hamilton, D., ‘Whither Cuban Socialism? The Changing Political Economy of the Cuban Revolution’, Latin American Perspectives, vol. 29, no. 3, (2002), pp. 18-39.

    Killoran-McKibbin, S., ‘Cuba's Urban Agriculture: Food Security and Urban Sustainability’, Women and Environments International Magazine, (Spring, 2006), pp. 70-71.

    Koont, S., ‘A Cuban Success Story: Urban Agriculture’, Review of Radical Political Economics, vol. 40, no. 3, (2008), pp. 285-91.

    Monreal, P., ‘Development as an Unfinished Affair: Cuba after the "Great Adjustment" of the 1990s’, Latin American Perspectives, vol. 29, no. 3, (2002), pp. 75-90.

    Oxfam, Cuba: Going Against the Grain, (2001), retrieved March 3 2009, from Oxfam America: https://www.oxfamamerica.org/newsandpubl ... t1164.html

    Staten, C., The History of Cuba, New York, Palgrave MacMillan, 2005.

    Valdes, J. & Stoller, R., ‘Culture and Development: Some Considerations for Debate’, Latin American Perspectives, vol. 29, no. 4, (2002), pp. 31-46.
     
  10. Luisa

    Luisa Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    Spirited, I was referring to property design and infrastructure rather than growing plants. We already do many of the things you suggest w.r.t. obtaining and growing plants, and w.r.t. salvaging materials. I'm more concerned with working out what goes where and affording how to install things (fences, sheds, tanks etc.). Every time I add another piece to the puzzle there's all these extra interactions that suddenly become possible and some are real value-adding items. So priorities get shuffled.

    Also I'm in town and cautious about accumulating anything that can get the council on my back. I have had stuff given to me that I've had to move on as I can't take too many chances with council.

    I'm tending towards aslanded's situation but not aiming so high or grand. Am thinking back to my grandparent's home of late and the lessons there. Spirited, I think your business idea is good and in a population centre would probably take off.

    Mark, interesting to hear there is a movement aiming at bringing Cuba back to the capitalist fold. Might have left their run a bit late though!
     
  11. aslanded

    aslanded Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    I never mentioned the potential that permaculture has to produce your own ethanol to run your car, methane like the Chinese do for cooking and heating, and an abundance of meat from rabbits, wallabies, geese, pigs, cows, and all produced without them being fed the waste products of other mass produced animals and force fed massive doses of anitibiotics to keep them from festering to death in the filthy conditions they live in. Personally I'm not ready to let the corporations control what I put into my body. At least I still have this much control over my life, even if I cant stop them from tearing down the last forests, and burning the planet to an Apocalypse. I have to stand by like the other 6 billion or so people on this planet and wait for our fearless leaders and the corporate giants that run them to process the gifts that nature has given us into toxic waste and try to sell it to us before the planets systems start to shut down. All I can do is stop the cafe talk and theoretical ranting, and bust my ass to produce an example of how we could live if we could break free from the massive overblown systems of power which are sucking the resources of the planet dry. Its happened, the financial crisis is just another indication that we cant support such a massive top heavy parasite, who we somehow expect to get us out of the mess that they are creating just by existing. As long as we expect to be able to live a fairy tale life of massive consumption without even doing anything to create that wealth other than dig up some coal or burn down another forest we will be sliding deeper and deeper into a hole which is still being cleverly hidden by smoke screens such as pig flu and whatever other nonsense they cook up. All I can do right now is find a way out of this mess for myself which doesnt involve debt and allows me to produce my own food and take responsibility for my own actions, for only the gods know how much shit we are in for giving that responsibility to someone else.
     
  12. Flying Binghi

    Flying Binghi Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    Hmmmm....if you dont like the so-called 'big companys', dont buy their products. e.g. i'm yet to see anyone forced to buy a particular type of car, or forced to buy a particular type of petrol...or even forced to buy petrol...

    ...its always easy to blame others for what, in many cases, in a non issue to most.
     
  13. aslanded

    aslanded Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    Thats frustratingly simplistic. I can choose not to buy products that contain no genetically modified foods but I cannot stop them from contaminating the food I grow, entering the food chain, forcing legislation through which hides the fact that GE ingredients were used. I can choose not to buy the timber to build my house from Gunns but that doesnt stop them from clearing the last of the old growth forests and pushing whatever agenda they choose as they control the tas govt. I have no say when my power bills increase due to subsidising big industry's cheap power so they can run 20,000,000 watt motors to pulp the forest. I have no say when the gas, electricity, water and medical services get taken from the people who built them up and sold to private industry who then run them into the ground for profit. I could go on and on. Large powerful corporations take away our choices by eliminating their competition, not because they are better but because they have more resources and control.
     
  14. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    Big companies are turning us into a lazy bunch of all-hopers aren't they ? Its not that we want to be "lazy" but if there is an easier way of getting something done we usually find that easiest path to folow.

    Companies market their products powerfully... its no coincidence that chocolates and lollies are at a childs eye level when we walk into a shop. And the conveniently placed chocolate bars at the counter are not put there to save space.

    Its not simply a matter of saying "I'm not going to buy that product or support that company", the consumer needs to say... "I WILL NOT BE BOUGHT..."

    In other words, a product is simply a vehicle that connects a consumer to a company.
     
  15. Flying Binghi

    Flying Binghi Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    aslanded, i can see we agree on some things... :)


    As for "Large powerful corporations take away our choices by eliminating their competition", ya aint seen nothing yet...wait until they get an ETS going...then you'll see corporate and government greed in all its forms.. :x
     
  16. Susan Horn

    Susan Horn New Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    Please see www.pathtofreedom.com and www.polyfacefarms.com

    Both of these successful operations are using PC principles to grow food and make a living for the families. Path to Freedom is a suburban microfarm in California; Polyface Farms is a 100-acre "grass farm" where they also produce very lovely chicken, beef, pork I think, eggs, veggies... Michael Pollan wrote a lot about Polyface Farms in one of his more recent books -- Omnivore's Dilemma, I think. Gives very good description of the methods used there -- intesive rotational grazing by the ruminants, then cleanup and tillage by the chooks.

    These operations are part of the inspiration for me to try turning my sandy 1/4-acre into a Florida version of Path to Freedom. Ultimately, hoping to provide 50% of the family's food and have surplus to sell or share. This, in addition to running a small mom and pop business, seems ambitious enough for now. I admire those of you doing this fulltime and hope someday we can give it a try.
     
  17. Gen-X

    Gen-X Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    I've lurked before, but only joined recently to participate in this discussion.

    We are attempting to adopt permaculture practices on our 5 acres of "rural-residential" land, which was previously used for logging. Such was the degradation of the soils (and of available funds after the house was built) that adopting permaculture principles was our only real option. Time is what improved our production of food - all of our spare time invested in managing the weeds better, by turning them back into the soil.

    And I think that's the crux of the permaculture debate here - the economics can only be justified, when existing models fail.

    Agricultural farming hasn't failed yet. Neither has the demand for cheap food. So what is there to change other than getting a better yield that's cost comparitive?

    As a wage earning family who were going to pay a mortgage anyway, we could justify the cost to go permie. Whether we were going to have an ornamental garden or a food forrest, we still had to pay for our patch of land. A farmer however, is a mass producer to justify the cost of the land (and business) to operate.

    And this is where I find the trend towards permaculture in the average backyard, a little misleading. How many people who adopt permaculture practices, factor into the equation, that their lifestyles are subsidised by "trading practices we like to hate"? I chose the username "Gen-X" to let people know what generational perspective I'm coming from. My whole life, from conception until now, has been subsidised by Capitalism and trade. When I decided to research and adopt permaculture in our system, it was done so with Capitalistic tendencies and of course, "trade" with businesses.

    We needed to eat in the meantime, so we bought food - and we still buy food. If it wasn't available to us at the reduced price it was though, we wouldn't have discovered "permaculture" in the first place. It was only after the luxury of abundant trade (ie: profits) which allowed us to explore garden design practices as an option. Starving people grow food for the sake of survival. Wealthy countries can afford to explore how best they'd like their food "designed" for consumption.

    Being a Gen-X person, I can very well appreciate where my life came from and how I can design it better. There are no illusions however, that I can escape the system completely. It's not that I am trapped here, I was born here and so was every generation born into their own system of order at the time. Trade has been beneficial for mankind. Permaculture may very well be the food growing system of the future, with or without the current economic model failing, but it has only come about because of change being subsidised by current practices.

    You could say capitalistic tendencies breed capitalistic tendencies. Unless you're into permaculture as a belief system, you're going to try and make a buck out of selling it (or the products there of) to someone else. I'm adopting permaculture because I can afford to. The change is subsidised by current market prices and a wage. If we don't have mass production in some form, how many households could make the choice to switch to permaculture and growing their own?

    I'd much rather see a gradual shift to permaculture on a social level - hand in hand with capitalistic tendencies - so we can all get there and enjoy the experience. What doesn't work too well in societies throughout history, is anarchy. :axe:
     
  18. Salkeela

    Salkeela Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    Good post Gen-X!

    And welcome to the forum too.......
     
  19. Gen-X

    Gen-X Junior Member

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    Re: I want to believe.......

    Thank you for the welcome Salkeela. :D
     

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