How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Michaelangelica, Sep 11, 2008.

  1. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murry Darling System be saved for ever?

    Very interesting
    Look too at the role of charcoal and organic matter together. Charcoal seems to act as a catalist for increasing soil microbiological activity. Some say because it provides a protective environment for bacteria etc. The practice of Aboriginal cool burning ( burning slowly on wet days) etc0 would have provided charcoal as well as ash (ash raising/neutralising PH.) Of course it also sequesters CO2 for a lot longer than organic matter.
    I also just read a report that said nitrogen fixing bacteria is killed by high nitrogen fertilisers

    While fascinating how does all this pertain to the Murray Darling System?
    IMO the problem is lack of water. We need to get a lot more water in the system by
    • re-routing coastal rivers
      desalination from coastal rives (including helping environmental flows to some of the border rivers in trouble)
      air-water harvesting on a massive scale (or using lots of small solar powered units along the length of the river
      a massive pipe line from N. Australia
      pumping from underground aquifers

    We need a stable continuous source of water, freed from the vagaries of rainfall and weather. If the ancient Romans could archive this for their towns & cities- sometimes with aquifers hundreds of miles long- surely we can do the same.

    This is not just for us but the huge amount of wildlife dependant on the system. (40% of Australia's birds for example.)
    Once the river goes acid, that is the end of the rain/drought-food-chain ecology.
    We have twelve months, before the biggest environmental disaster in Australian (World?) history.

    Even rains won't really save us, they will just make us more complacent and reduce the urgency of the problem- which will always be there.
     
  2. Jana

    Jana Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Messages:
    393
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Re: How can the Murry Darling System be saved for ever?

    Its good to modulate blood pressure with a little counter media.
    It appears that it is conventional farming practices that are the source of the salination problem...so those need to be fixed.
    The Murray river experience has shown that salination of soils is due to chemical fertilizers and plowing, plus the decrease in soil organic matter. Superphosphate added increases the formation of salt in the soil. Irrigation ditches then allow the salt to enter the river system. With correct land use systems salinity is not a problem.
    https://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cov ... e_1991.asp —Australia's Salinity Crisis: What Crisis? Two great news videos

    Australia is vulnerable to changes in global weather patterns and the increase in weather extremes associated with global warming...however an enormous amount of local climate reformation can be encouraged by judicious planting of rainmaking species. Fog collecting wind breakers for starter trees. The water management systems are going to have to be upgraded industrial scale, so that when there are severe storms most of the water can be kept on the land—through swales, ponds, dams...storm water off urban landscape should be diverted to tanks or dams for irrigation water. The more extreme storm weather associated with increased global warming means that native grasslands and tree cover will become more and more necessary.

    Australia is the only continent without glaciers...another reason why rockdust remineralization is so important there.

    www.remineralize.org/don/synopsis01.html —Don Weaver, Survival of Civilization, Carbon Cycle Iceage Theory developed by John Hamaker.

    www.climate-of-the-past.net/ — William Ruddiman explains ice age periodacy.

    https://www.wunderground.com/education/webster.asp —Are Hurricanes increasing in intensity.
    https://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMa ... amp=200805 —Tornado stats
     
  3. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    https://www.getup.org.au/files/campaigns ... tsheet.pdf

    Get Up has a petition going too.
    above is their fact sheet /action plan

    Does anyone know much about the Victorian pipeline?
    It seems crazy.
    Am I wrong?

    Perhaps the pipeline could/should be used to pump desalinated water FROM Melbourne back into the rivers?

    https://www.livenews.com.au/articles/200 ... lbourne_MP

    https://www.murrayriver.com.au/river-man ... overnment/

    https://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 71,00.html
     
  4. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murry Darling System be saved for ever?

    Bugger you Jana.
    Now I am a member of yet another useless internet forum!

    I need to get a life! :)

    ACF policy on MD
    https://www.acfonline.org.au/articles/ne ... 8&c=284449

    Wiki on MD

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Darling
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,215
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    How do you save the river system?

    I think we all know the answer to that one, it's just that most people wish there was another way. :wink:
     
  6. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    I don't know the answer. Please enlighten me.

    When I say 'saved" I mean with the communities and towns of people, the industry and agriculture, the wildlife and ecosystem all intact, healthy and growing.
    The only possibility I see is de-sal on a massive scale providing more fresh water for the system in times of drought.

    I guess that is impossible to archive in 12 months although I do like the long hot house type idea; it has potential.

    So we pray for rain or have a funeral in 12 months time.

    Already the government is looking/surveying which wetlands can, or should, be saved. Not all will, some will die.
    Not just until the next big wet, but forever, as they will become ponds of sulphuric acid.
    https://murraydarling.org/index.html
    [​IMG]
    This is one solution but it will kill communities and towns in the Basin
    https://www.gmagazine.com.au/news/464/mu ... page=0%2C1
    How much desal water would 3 billion buy?
     
  7. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    [​IMG]
    https://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 40,00.html

    https://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... 62,00.html
     
  8. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/environm ... 0U20081224

    Yar recon?
     
  9. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    Somewhere, on some thread we were talking about this:-
    https://www.azonano.com/news.asp?newsID=737
    https://hf911.cn/index.php?article/diet/ ... /3387.html
    I am reliably told at least one of the big corporate cotton farm is planting thousands of almond trees instead of cotton.



    https://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/stor ... 82,00.html

    Water in Arabic ??
    https://hydraulic-bojnourd.blogfa.com/post-51.aspx
    i guess they should know more than a bit about it.[​IMG]
     
  10. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

     
  11. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/environm ... 24?sp=true
     
  12. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    https://murraybridge.yourguide.com.au/ne ... 09074.aspx
    [​IMG]
    People, families, kids & communities.


    https://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local ... 08111.aspx
     
  13. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    Someone gave the Murray darling system 12 months to live. It seems we are on track despite record rains in S. Queensland.
    more at:-
    https://www.watoday.com.au/national/acid ... -7xxh.html
    Extreme acidity not only kills the fish it kills the microscopic "wee beasties" who sit suspended,, waiting for the good times. When (if?) the rains come these spark into life setting off the whole food chain. So that part of the wetland becomes permanently a dead "desert' , with extrerme acidity, no matter what.
     
  14. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    Distilation of salts from inland saline water sources
    H. Aral and G. Sparrow

    Abstract

    CSIRO PUBLISHING - Exploration Geophysics

    Processing of saline water to produce industrial minerals with large volume applications is considered one way to attack the salinity problem in the Murray-Darling Basin.
    We propose that saline water in the Basin be treated to produce industrial mineral salts such as sodium chloride, magnesium sulphate, and magnesium chloride.

    The magnesium-rich bittern fraction of the saline waters may be processed further to value-added products such as magnesium hydroxide, Sorel cement, or spinel refractories.

    Sorel cement could be consumed in large quantities in the Basin as construction material and may be used to seal new interception scheme lakes, although the stability of the Sorel cement in aqueous environment remains to be investigated.

    The processing of mineral sands can be linked with treatment of saline water in an integrated and cost-effective manner that aims to remove salt from the Basin.

    The sodium chloride fraction can be used to produce chemicals such as chlorine, hydrochloric acid and sodium hydroxide that can be used in the processing of zircon.

    Direct chlorination of ilmenite could consume the equivalent of about 1.4 tonnes of sodium chloride for each tonne of ilmenite treated if no chlorine was recycled.

    Chlorination of synthetic rutile (about 90% TiO2) could consume the equivalent of about 0.3 tonnes of sodium chloride for each tonne of titania pigment produced.
    Work in CSIRO Minerals has produced low radioactivity zirconia from a Murray Basin zircon by caustic soda decomposition followed by concentrated hydrochloric acid leaching. In addition, it is proposed that desalination plants be established across the Basin to recover fresh water, heat, and electricity from saline water.

    These plants will obtain heat and electricity from solar power generation schemes with storage of power in solar ponds and molten salts.
    Integrated saline water and mineral sands mining industry in the Basin may ultimately lead to new technology for Australia such as titanium metal production.
    Titanium metal produced from TiO2 pigment may be used in building desalination plants across the Basin to recover fresh water from saline waters.

    Exploration Geophysics 33(2) 136 - 140

    Full text doi:10.1071/EG02136

    © ASEG 2002
    CSIRO PUBLISHING - Exploration Geophysics


    too much chemisty for this small bear's brain :bear:
     
  15. nsainsbury

    nsainsbury Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2006
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    I don't know the answer. Please enlighten me.

    When I say 'saved" I mean with the communities and towns of people, the industry and agriculture, the wildlife and ecosystem all intact, healthy and growing.
    The only possibility I see is de-sal on a massive scale providing more fresh water for the system in times of drought.

    I guess that is impossible to archive in 12 months although I do like the long hot house type idea; it has potential.
    [/quote]
    There is no way to have both, unless you can create an alternate, very minimal water usage industry develop in these communities.
     
  16. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    I like this idea too. It can be developed, with a combination of high and low tech. materials and solutions.

    I saw this on Catalyst ABC TV last night and wondered "If you can do it for minerals why not salt?"

    Catalyst: Bubble Mining - ABC TV Science

    Now if we put lots of bubbles in sea water would we get the gold coming off the top? or just the salt? (Same thing really)

    When you try and look at the physics and chemistry of water our ignorance is stunning
    H2O - The Mystery, Art, and Science of Water
    ie They know bugger all about the most important thing.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. duanejen

    duanejen Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    NOTES FOR OPENING KEYNOTE
    AUSTRALIAN WATER SUMMIT, 1 APRIL 2009
    MAUDE BARLOW, SENIOR ADVISOR ON
    WATER TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
    NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY

     
  18. pumpkin

    pumpkin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2009
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    I don't know enough about water science to know the answer but certainly stopping the heavier irrigators would be a start. Why are we growing cotton and rice in dry inland areas which can only survive with heavy water allocations?

    It is a difficult conundrum and the current scheme to buy back water allocations will also have negative impact on some of the inland communities which have thrived due to irrigation.

    The government certainly has in it's power the ability to decentralise some government services, offices and manufacturing to these rural communities to help ensure their survival. It would also go some way in reducing the size of our major metropolitan cities which are breaking under the weight of inadequate infrastructure to support ever-growing numbers of people.
     
  19. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    Agrreed, already the Central Coast of NSW (Gosford Wyong) have run out of water and are spending $130+ million to build a pipeline from a small creek to a large storage area. Seems a insane amout of money, considering the river will now have to have envrionmental flows sustained (imposible in a drought year like 2006 where the river only ran on four days)+ there will be contining water and pumping, wages, and maitenence costs. This is so another 100,000+ people can be dumped (In 440 sq mt blocks) in an area alrady very poorly serviced by train to Sydney.
    Why deforest our Coast more -which makes our inland drier still?
    See[​IMG]
    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... cycle.html
    Wait to inland farmers and towns catch up with that very recent reseach
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/ar ... d=10573778

    https://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/conten ... 573141.htm

    https://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-na ... -bejt.html

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009 ... =australia
    Two interting video /pictoriallinks here as well-- at least Lake Aiyre is filling up

    i saw yesterday that one coastal NSW town, (was it Mullimbiby?) on the NSW Coast got over 500mm of rain in one 24 hour period (This is over half- a -metere).
    it seems always to beraining around Byron Bay and the border rivers. Is there no way we can get some of this water inland?
     
  20. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?

    ISTM that the most interesting thing about this is the low energy pumping of water.
    Part of the problem with water scarcity is getting it to where it is needed.
    Demonstarted last week in Oz where 1/2metre of rain fell on the NSW N. coast (in one day!) and the inland and Murry Darling & W. Victoria is still in drought.

    Surely REAl trees are abetter alternative to CO2 sequestration?
    Real trees can be harvested to make furniture, or pyrolised to make energy and "biochar".
    Biochar- low temp charcoal- acts as a catalyst to promote soil fertility and also saves on water and fertilser in the long term. :bear:


    :bear: --
    https://www.dancewithshadows.com/tech/sy ... m-the-air/
    ----------------
    Be the change you want to see in the world - Ghandi
    ----------------
     

Share This Page

-->