Horse Wormer Vs Earthworms

Discussion in 'Breeding, Raising, Feeding and Caring for Animals' started by briansworms, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

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    I can't remember where this was mentioned before so I started a new thread.

    Finally I got hold of some Worming mix. I got a sample of about 100 worms in a small takeway container. I gave them what I thought would be a lethal dose. Some was mixed with a little water and poured over the top of the castings they were in and then I put some directly on the worms.:sweat::sweat:

    After 48 hours there is no dead worms. :)Tomorrow I will mix some wormer in some food and feed to the worms. I will also get the packet tomorrow from down in the shed and list the name of the ingredients of the wormer.

    Seems the myth may just be put to rest as just that, a myth.:nod:
     
  2. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I thought that would be the situation. Intestinal worms are a different species to earth worms. Good on you for doing the science!
     
  3. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Good job, now I have something to contemplate regarding animal waste & worm composting.
     
  4. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Good project Brian! Joe Jenkins has done some work on this too, details on the Humanure forum.


    There may be other reasons to not use worming medicine on animals of course ;-)
     
  5. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    We used to have a lot of trouble with horse wormers killing dung beetles (this is well documented in scientific literature) but in the last few years at work (country racing stables) I have observed that despite worming every 3 months the dung beetles are still around in good numbers. Must be related to exactly what the active ingredient/s are. As above, wormers are very specific for worm species and for bot fly larvae.
     
  6. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

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    I have been using manure from different sources for around 4 to 5 years I suppose. Never had a problem despite the large number of people saying to watch out for manure that has come from recently treated animals. I spoke to one of Australias leading worm suppliers (not me lol) and he had never heard of losses from wormed animal's manure.

    The purpose of the experiment is to prove one way or the other it it is true or not. The worms in the container have been without food for 4 to 5 weeks. They just had the bedding material they were packed in. They were the last tub left at the pet shop so I swapped them for a fresh lot. They were still in good condition so I decided to use them.

    Today I checked again and no dead worms even after what should have been a deadly dose if it was going to kill them. Today I added food laced with double the amount I first used. They will be hungry as they have only had their own castings to eat for the last couple of weeks at least. Tomorrow should tell for sure.

    The active ingredients are Abamecitin 4mg/g, Morantel Tartrate 167mg/g.
     
  7. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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  8. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

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    Thank you for that. It seems that the paper agrees with me and the active ingredients have no effect.
     
  9. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

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    Ok I have just checked the worms again and there are no losses. They seem just as active as when I started. I will give it a couple of more days for the food to decompose and the worms will really get stuck into it then.

    Hmm looks like this Myth is busted lol
     
  10. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

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    Update The worms are looking good lol
     
  11. Stubby

    Stubby Junior Member

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    Good to know :), although I still will be very cautious using chemical wormers on account of the dung beetle... just in case.
     
  12. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    Have you done an avoidance test with the worms? Give them an option on where they can go and what they can eat. Eg using a tray add your worms and castings and add a block in the centre, add the chemicals to one side then remove the block and then note which side the worms travel.

    Is the active chemical ingredient in the wormer you are using a common one used on most other wormer brands?

    Just because your worms don't die straight away does not mean those chemicals are not having a negative effect on the health of your soil biota. What is the effect of those chemicals over multiple worm generations? Testing is a little more complex than just wacking it on and seeing if they die.

    We have kept our horses without the need for wormers for many years now. We use Pat Coleby's Natural Horse Care diet additives. Keeps our horses happy and healthy.
    http://www.animalhealthstore.com.au/natural-horse-care-new-edition-by-pat-coleby.html
     
  13. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

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    Hello Bazman,

    I am a simple worm farmer not a scientist lol. No I just had some worms in a small 500mm tub with some worm castings. I did this as there is often mention of livestock wormer killing earthworms which feed on the manure. I have never had a problem but asked my daughter for the wormer container after she wormed her horse. My only interest was to see if the wormer actually killed the worms and it didn't.

    There is a link to a paper on the effects of wormer a few posts back and it claims no negative impact on the worms so far as I am concerned I set out to prove that it doesn't kill worms.
     
  14. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    i was always led to believe that horse manure/stable rakings, after horses had been wormed was to be rejected as it was not healthy for garden worms. we have a small breeder near by who gives their stable sweepings away to gardeners, and when i suggested about post worming his wife said when they are breeding foals they need to be careful of chemicals used, he also showed me a pile of post treatment stable material that was chocka block with worms, so dunno, not that we are big users of any manure, as we run our gardens manure and fertiliser free, now for the first time we have our won biological charcoal and ash. so time might tell the benefits. friend says he has dark soil in his gardens from using it.

    one of those you do or you don't from personal experience, did use some stable horse manure at one time, reckon too high in nitrogen got more bugs that i could poke a stick at, eating our plants.

    could be teh worms in animals parasitic worms and in the garden earth worms different animals hey?

    len
     
  15. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

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    Len, stable manure with lots of sawdust would be full of urine. As you said full of nitrogen and not good for worms.
     
  16. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yep certainly o/d'd the nitrogen, dunno about the worms we've always had heaps of them

    len
     
  17. Jetanalken

    Jetanalken Junior Member

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    Really both the worms are doing good for healthy soil, I had only information about the working of earthworms for Permaculture but not about the horse wormer. Now I have knowledge about the both. So, thanks guys !
     
  18. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

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    There was some interest on this topic before so thats why I did the experiment. The good news is that I can use manure from any source and not worry. I went to buy some bagged manure today but was all gone so tomorrow I have to do the hard work myself and bag it from the source. Bagged manure is so much easier as I just drop the money in the honour tin but then my daughter wouldn't be impressed if Dad is not cleaning up after her horse lol.

    Raising worms is just a never ending cycle of shovelling manure.
     
  19. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    There are days when raising children feels just the same....
     
  20. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    Thanks Brian for attempting something, even if it wasn't scientifically-peer reviewed.

    So far, I will still avoid wormed-manure, if I could help it. Chemicals aren't necessary in any facet of gardening so if you can exclude them from all parts, only the better.
     

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