Ricky, I don't think you are knocking anybody's ego and your comment was appropriate. Please know that you are very welcome here, at least with this Junior Member you are. Tezza, your attitude does nothing to create a Permaculture Network. It is the same sort of PDC Bashing that has scuttled much of the U.S. effort to unify Permaculturists across the country. Please desist. One of the characteristics that was made clear to me from the PDC course that I am glad I sacrificed much in order to afford is that it does not matter how many elements you have in a system, what matters is the connections and associations between them. I spent thirty years learning techniques and thought I was a pretty good gardener. My homestead, however, never even approached self-reliance (and could not have) until I was able to integrate Systems Analysis with my many tidbits and techniques. I do not denigrate those techniques, and of course, earning a PDC did not relegate them to a shoebox somewhere. I use them every day - better, more efficiently, more sustainably. I am more satisfied and confident because of the PDC. I feel I would be handicapped without it, notwithstanding years of education, experience, blogging, surfing, and trying. PDC Bashing cannot provide any appropriate yield, is associated and entangled only with division and disunity, and contradicts everything that works in Nature. I want to talk about Permaculture here. Is that too much to ask? I happen to believe that Permaculture is more than just growing a garden, building a trellis, digging trenches and swales, composting, and so forth and so on. Permaculture revolves around a set of Ethics and Philosophy that have the potential to turn this train wreck we call a planet around. Rugged individualists here and there cannot do it. Unified, educated, motivated, and yes, even rewarded (God In Heaven, Jesus, Mary and Joseph forbid!) Permaculturist can. That fact is the ONLY justification for the sacrifice, pain, and even suffering that will come with even attempting to create a World Wide Network. It is worth it. It is the only thing that is worth our time, talents, everything we have been blessed to possess, and everything we will ever be blessed to possess. A future for my grandchildren is a worth so much more than your ego, or mine. Without such an ethic, absent that realization, void of that morality, all the years of labor, study and free advice is just sounding brass. "We don't need a PDC to do Permaculture..." That's all too true. Frankly, by that same logic we could make the "brash statement" that we don't really need Permaculture at all. We could have done it all on our own. Who the hell do any of these guys think they are coming in here and telling us what to do? I'll tell you who they are! They're the guys who helped us define the problem, create the solution, and then, by God, they were gracious enough to step back and turn it over to us to promote and to govern by the seat of our pants and the ethical standards we decide to uphold and to live by. After these guys have carried us across the river, are we like the scorpion who turns and strikes just because that's how we are? I hope not. I choose to live with the hope that we can and we will create an ethical, sustainable environment without minimizing the standards and ethics and philosophies that created US. You say you just "do Permaculture." Well, I don't think you do that by bashing the foundation of the movement. If you think your words are a metaphor for Pragmatic Permaculture (which seems to be your mantra), then I invite you to take your shovel and dig out the corner of the foundation of your house and just see where the removal of that function association takes you. PDC Bashing, its not even a slow poison. It's just mainlining failure. I find that unacceptable. You say you just "do Permaculture." May I make so bold as to request that you practice what you preach in the soil of this forum. Creating a World-Wide Permaculture Network. It is a good cause. It is an essential cause. If that's not what this thread is here to talk about, if you'd all rather talk about methods and techniques alone and forget that there is a standard for Permaculture Education well established that seems to be teetering because of EGOS out there, well, Moderators, shut this down and lets all revert back to the kind of more milk-toast, palatable, and politically correct topics like the Moderator at Permies.com demands. I just left Permies.com because I couldn't take the blatant jettisoning of the very basic foundations of Permaculture. If we cannot come to what amounts to the center of the movement to discuss such fundamentals, it is a very bad indicator. If that turns out to be true, the canary will not last the day.