Help Develop the Worldwide Permaculture Network

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by CraigMackintosh, Sep 29, 2010.

  1. Dzionik

    Dzionik Junior Member

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    The very fact that we're discussing the personal titles does not say much in favor permaculture. Somehow I feel that such a thing is incompatible with the principles of permaculture. You should leave such things to the conscience of the members and moderators.
     
  2. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I don't think it's actually about personal titles, but it's more about how one can easily recognise skill and experience (at least it's a starting point).
     
  3. Dzionik

    Dzionik Junior Member

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    I agree with you but I think it would be better that the primary rating came from other members, such as on some forums and social groups where there is some kind of evaluation of topics.

    Unfortunately my knowledge of English desperately permit me to be more precise, I hope you understand me. :)
     
  4. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Excuse Me ,We Wernt disscussing titles mate......

    We,well me, is the thought that after 20 yrs of "doing permaculture" and a member, (albiet senior one,though at 56 maybe it should be mature even.. since 2003) .I felt sorta left out as (at the time of 1st post),it was being maybe solely for P.D.C holders...

    I was upset that even after all the times, and thousands of posts from some very knowledgable people, wasnt going to count for much.A lot of great Posters have left here some(myself included),But we keep comming back,you cant keep us away,cos Were "permies".We in it for life,we arnt newbies, or partimers,most of us live n breath permaculture 24/7... I go on camping trips,and have been able to pop the odd garlic clove in a nice bitta soil.. and return a year later,and still be growing but from its offspring now.

    Tezza



    Most of our past problems in here have come from dissagreements between the stronger,longertimed "permie" and those who were just (shit stirring trolls) who take delight in baiting us,with all the tired "non aware" bullshit...

    This board has no set rules apart from personal attacks or obsenities over the board..

    Alot got dissalusioned with the arguing etc, and a split occured,some left to another site....Fortuanatly most of those who left were "Question askers" meaning their new site didnt have any experts cos the Loyalists to Real Permaculture stayed here..... So actually both boards suffered, But fortunatly Permaculture is more Established then others With the Permaculture Reasearch Intistute,providing us with their shelter,accomadation,and a lot of POWER...

    Power to (ALL) the People right on.... john lennon..1970s.

    I may not be able to "green the desert", But I sure can do my my own back garden,(s)
     
  5. Alex.s

    Alex.s Junior Member

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    Network

    Dear Craig

    I would just like agree with Tezza and add my thoughts.
    I am one of the contributors to the money raised through the 'chip in' option of the network, however i did this before noticing that you were only going to allow PDC holders to register... I contributed because I felt that this network would be a very positive encouragement to everyone interested in permaculture. I will be starting a permaculture system on acreage in the coming year using as much time and money as possible. This network gave me a great boost of energy as I realised its potential, however I also see a great flaw in the PDC requirement.
    If you restrict the registration to PDC members you will find that the network will merely facilitate the current state of permaculture awareness by allowing those already committed to form a community. If you open the network to all people then you will find that while you not only have this community as a core of people who are taking permaculture seriously, other people who are interested but are limited in their ability to commit will become involved. The more people who join and start a backyard project the better. The faster the better. I have many friends who are vaguely interested in permaculture, enough to join this network, but not enough to get a PDC or to do anything as a project. If they had a profile on this network it would encourage them to start their own small scale project, which would lead them to seek greater knowledge and community and thus enroll in a PDC. If you want to spread permaculture fast, then reach the widest audience possible. If they can be active in the movement, they will be twice as committed, even if the activity is simply having a profile. If people start to change their values, as it becomes socially respectable to follow ecological and permaculture based systems of living, then they will change their actions. I think that the ability to have a profile with a project on the network is enough to encourage people to start and those already starting out to seek help and show their friends.
    I agree that people should be able to show the efforts they have gone through, perhaps with a badge or status such as 'PDC completed'.
    Is this network only for those already part of the permaculture movement, or is designed to accommodate and encourage everyone? If the latter, then maybe it is better to be all inclusive.

    I really look forward to this network
    Alex
     
  6. CraigMackintosh

    CraigMackintosh *****

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    Hi Alex

    Thanks for your thoughts and contribution.

    I suspect you haven't read the entire thread here, as I've already shared that non-PDC people will be able to join. If you enter PDC teacher details, you'll get a PDC badge. If you don't, you get a 'Member' badge. There is a badge legend that describes what all the badges mean.

    So, don't worry, anyone can join.
     
  7. Alex.s

    Alex.s Junior Member

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    Wonderful :)
    Is there any update on the estimated release date?
    Thank you for all your work and commitment
    Alex
     
  8. Chief Cloudpiler

    Chief Cloudpiler Junior Member

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    I've studied biological systems for thirty years and I have not spent that time just reading. i think I have learned a raft of useful techniques and skills over the years just by observing and trying things. I learned by working with my Indigenous relations and ancestors. The origin of what I have always tried to do was ancient sustainable ways. That said, I cannot claim that over those thirty years of hands-on intensive training I ever gained the tools I needed to really achieve the level of self-reliance I always wanted on my place, without the PDC I took. A thousand techniques do not unify to create in one's mind a Design System. You do not learn design analysis through techniques.

    Chief Cloudpiler
    Nemenhah Indigenous People
     
  9. Kerrick

    Kerrick Junior Member

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    I think everyone should be members and have the option to fill in our profiles with any specific credentials. We could check tickyboxes for our PDCs and teacher certificates and fill in who taught us, but that doesn't necessarily need to appear on every post—that could make people post lazily, since they know if they have higher credentials than someone else, they don't have to take any special care with their words to get respect. We should all hold each other to the same standards.

    I believe that in permaculture there are no experts and there are no know-nothings. This is an emerging discipline that is still coming to light. Even Bill is still learning more every day, I'd hazard. At the same time, it's a way of living that is part of our common evolutionary heritage. There are people who cannot read and have never taken a permaculture course or even heard the word who know more about it than I do. Once you manage to explain the principles to the person most deeply embedded in unsustainable consumer culture they will find something about it that has always been obvious to them. Sure, it's good to know where people are getting their information. But that doesn't necessarily require the exclusive feeling of tiered membership.
     
  10. Chief Cloudpiler

    Chief Cloudpiler Junior Member

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    I absolutely agree. I have to say I do get tired of the PDC bashing that seems to have taken over the boards right now. I hope that is not the way our "Community" decides to create itself going forward. It would not be a very honorable response to what Bill and Geoff put into this idea. We need that common heritage. We need that history as a Permaculture People.
     
  11. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    In my opinion it is important to value the worth of the Permaculture Design Course.

    There is just something you get from sharing time with twenty or so "likeminded" people in a format that is empowering, gives you confidence to get in and "do it".

    You can not get this - IMO - from book learning or even to some extent in a community group. I do not disagree with what Kerrick is saying but special worth needs to be put on people who have taken the PDC and for people who have applied thier knowledge in the community.

    I am not sure about the "lack of respect" thing for posters on the forum - I have not seen that.

    I would like to support Craig in what he is endeavouring to achieve and believe he is getting the balance right.
     
  12. Kerrick

    Kerrick Junior Member

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    I'm sorry, I'm fairly new to this particular discussion board and I'm not using the threaded format very well, so I missed that Craig had already stated how the new board will display people's member or PDC status. I'd be comfortable with that solution, myself. Sorry about that.
     
  13. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I agree Purplepear, even though I haven't done a PDC myself yet. ;) In a way, I wouldn't have been too concerned if I was actually left out of the 'Network' on this basis. I can't judge whether or not members should be required one or not because I haven't done one! if that makes sense. Maybe those of us who have never done one, only think we don't need to. How would we know unless we had done one :)
     
  14. DonHansford

    DonHansford Junior Member

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    You could come and do one with me next year, and find out *shameless plug* :angel:

    @PP - You put my thoughts into words - well done :clap: :clap: :clap:
     
  15. Chief Cloudpiler

    Chief Cloudpiler Junior Member

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    Titles

    I think posting that one has a PDC is a good thing, but I don't think it ought to be required to participate in the forum. The PDC shouldn't be criteria for creating hierarchies, it is after all a teaching tool. What I meant was that I am disconcerted over the PDC bashing that goes on here in the U.S., especially from those who have put themselves at the forefront of what they call Permaculture.

    My concern is this, in the U.S. we have no real national culture except consumerism. The trend in Permaculture should be toward reducing consumerism and waste in order to architect a sustainable future. I cannot see how Permies can create such a culture out of the same sort of competitive strategies that created the Late Great State.

    In Permaculture we have a few stated ethics that give us the very foundation we need to replace what we have - very bad- with something better, and ultimately with something that just might save our asses. Reducing the concepts back to issues of competition and getting gain will scuttle the opportunity to make a difference for our grandchildren, if we are to have any.
     
  16. Chief Cloudpiler

    Chief Cloudpiler Junior Member

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    Greater Network

    If one has an interest in Permaculture at all, I think one is already part of the greater network. An effort to better organize ourselves must entail paradigm shifts on many levels. I bow to Mollison's nod to the usefulness of hierarchies because there is work that must be done and a tipping point is never reached without adequate leadership. I would simply like to see a charter or foundational document establishing some guidelines for useful and beneficial hierarchy that recognizes the original Ethics and then invents itself going forward.

    Too often, when one finds oneself in a position of authority, there is the temptation to dictate or "micromanage" the lives and decision making of others. This should be avoided at all costs.

    One negative aspect of Permaculture that I have observed here in the U.S. is that because of technology (internet) we do a lot of networking and hardly any actual community building. There is a difference. How the issue is approached will determine success.
     
  17. Ricky Stevens

    Ricky Stevens Junior Member

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    im saving up to do my pdc, if people are really dedicated to permaculture and from rich countries they can and maybe should do a pdc to put money back into the pc community. I reckon if all those people who know permaculture but didnt do a course, kinda looked at it like a donation to the wider community, those pdc teachers would have more cash to do free courses in places like Africa etc. All this title stuff sounds like BS and big egos, I think its a good idea to show the difference, pdc and not, saving up the money and taking two weeks out of your life is difficult and takes real dedication.
     
  18. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Dont Knock our Egos Ricky...You gotta nerve accusing some of us for not donating money help you learn Permaculture.....What do YOU think us doing answering you biarsed opinions, for nothing,YEP nothing...
    Time from peoples lives is more vaulable then money any day of the week...You cant Learn EXPERIENCE..You cant LEARN experience.... You gotta learn by trials n errors,witch more often then enough, COSTS US MORE MONEY....Why...COZ WE EITHER CANT FIND ANYONE TO TEACH US or it COSTS so much to learn a course.
    WE teach for NOTHING,ZICH,BUGGER ALL ETC ETC... AS FOR @ WEEKS of MY LIFE...I been doing and passing info for about 20 thats TWENTY YEARS now about permaculture...
    You dont need a P.D.C to do permaculture!!!!! you just do it..You join us,or a local group,u aquire books,videos etc,you serarch high and low for anybit of information you can...In the world not many want to teach or show skills etc for nothing....Consider yourself dam lucky you can get all the info for nothing, (in here)...

    I get pissed with people who knock this board and or the people who spends ernormous amounts of time answering peoples questions,when most of the Questioners never even bother to thanks,kiss my arse or anything,NO wonder theres so few long term posters left who bother to answer anymore...

    Im sorry if Ive offended you with my remarks,BUT youve offended me,and probly one or two others in here with your brash comments....

    Some people think that permaculture is a money making buissness........ITS NOT!!!! Its a LIFESTYLE CHOICE...A MUCH BIGGER PICTURE!!!!!!!!!
    Think GLOBAL act LOCAL............. JUST DO IT...

    Dont forget to come back in here one day to teach in here....We need more experts in here,to deal with people like YOU

    Tezza
     
  19. Ricky Stevens

    Ricky Stevens Junior Member

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    talk about ANGRY, whoa, if people ar leaving this forum, I can understand why!

    FAO DA MODS: I joined today, made what i thought was an ok suggestion, not an accusation about anyone and this tezza dude chucks a mob of shiz at me, nice welcome, thanks heaps!

    if you wanna really put people off permaculture, just get a few more tezzas eh
     
  20. mrclockwatch

    mrclockwatch New Member

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    :party:Hi,
    I recently completed an internship at Geoffs and did my PDC elsewhere.I would have liked to do my PDC with Geoff however I could'nt.
    My PDC teacher only had a few years experience and he wasn't a very capable gardener,and didn't have the knowledge or experience apart from regurgitating the manual, he also lacked people skills.
    I only did the PDC with this teacher because he seemed to have the backing of PRI.
    I know a number of people who don't have PDC who would have done an excellent job of teaching.

    When we were on the internship we were lucky enough to go to see some large and small urban projects that one guy who had no PDC had helped set up,he let us visit his house and shared what seemed like years of knowledge with us,for free.
    I and the class learnt more in one afternoon and had more profound moments in one day with this person, than the entire PDC,I took originally.
    I did ask him why he never took a PDC and his response was that he had parents who were permie,his wife was a permie and he believed the money and time it would take was better spent on projects that he was working on here and overseas and on his family.

    I would say that commitment to permaculture doesn't come through saving up the money,because a lot of the people in my course were funded by their parents or just worked basic jobs saved and treated it like an extended study holiday overseas.
    I think commitment to permaculture is doing something.
    I noticed as I browsed the forums that the most vocal and helpful members Tezza,Grahame,Eco,Michealangela,Fernando,Don,Sunburn ect ect are all non certificate holders.Yet when I read the posts the information is very very good,university level good.
    Even though I have my paper,I would not be silly enough to question the dedication and time that these people have put into self learning.
    It does seem a little offensive to discount this by making them separate in some way.
    I have heard other stories from my friends and cohorts, of PDC teachers who were not up to standard as well,so the piece of paper is not really a good indication of skills, if anything it's creates the illusion of a skill that might not be present.
    I do wonder why it even matters,if you have paper or not?It just seems to cause anger.
    My advice to anyone is look at your teacher do they have their own site,do they have at least 5 years experience,do they have real experience not just one day here one day there a month here a month there.Experience is a good teacher and so is structured learning but if I had my time again I would have preferred to be taught by experience.
    I hope you all have a wonderful New Year and I will continue to learn from everyone that I can,a very big thank you to all those wise people who answer many questions it saves me a lot of searching!!!!
    Thanks
    David.
     

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