Help Develop the Worldwide Permaculture Network

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by CraigMackintosh, Sep 29, 2010.

  1. CraigMackintosh

    CraigMackintosh *****

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  2. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Someone once made a "thousand points of light" speech and that's how I see the worldwide Permaculture community .... thousands of individual points of light out there, somewhat hard to find unless you actually stumble upon one.

    One of the biggest challenges I see (especially here in the States) is getting the word out. Most people here in the States don't even know what Permaculture is! They've never heard the word before!! (Ask me how I know this.) I have yet to "stumble upon" another Permaculturist and must rely instead on a small website to make contact locally with others of like mind.

    Craig and the PRI have done significant work getting the Worldwide Permaculture Network started, but now they need some help getting it operational. I personally think this will be a tremendous step forward, a means to connect those thousands of individual points-of-light around the world into a synergistic network of Permaculture knowledge. Check out the video (bottom of the page here: https://permaculture.org.au/2010/09/25/worldwide-permaculture-network-teaser/) and see if you don't agree that the WPN is the "glue" we need to bring together a cohesive, global Permaculture community.

    I do!

    Bill
     
  3. Adam

    Adam Junior Member

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    This looks like a great project! I feel like they were reading my mind, as just a couple of weeks ago I wrote in one of my posts:

    I would definitely urge everyone to support it if they are able to do so. I can't wait to see this vision come to life!
     
  4. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    As soon as a P.D.C was a requirment to participate,i think that woulda stopped more then half in here from joining in..

    22 years as a permie. its us experienced "old hands" youll need as well if you want the world to know,YOU just gotta include those uncertified permies, or its a you or us situation

    I got no certificates.Been unable to find a teacher.... I gave up and came in here to learn...Now i give it back for nothing

    Tezza
     
  5. Dzionik

    Dzionik Junior Member

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    I am from Serbia, you know those bloody Serbs (if you watched CNN :) and I have to agree with Tezza, although I do not have anywhere near the experience as she does i have the last six years spend reading everything I could find on the net including all Mollison's books. I'd like some PC completed the course but I'm afraid that $ 1000 + I will never be able to save, just such is a situation in my country after the wars and sanctions we have become the third world.
    And what about the rest of the third world who have access to information but not the financial means? If you want to widely popularize Permaculture you will need our help.

    All the best in your project...

    Nikola
     
  6. andrew curr

    andrew curr Moderator

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    i think what u are saying should be respected tezza

    i dont understand what it is about human beins and needing a peice of paper
    thankfully the effect is diminishing peace on
     
  7. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    The PDC is much more than a piece of paper IMO
    The things you learn and the inspiration you get just by being together with likeminded people in an intense experience is much more than just the knowledge you may pick up.
     
  8. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I'm interested to see how people feel about this on the forum, and have been wondering how many here have a PDC or not (I don't).

    Craig, I didn't want to go into it further in the blog comments, but I think it is worth having the discussion here. Does the PRI (Geoff, Nadia, yourself, others...) consider that having a PDC is the only legit way to practice Pc? Or is it more that the network is seen as likely to be more successful in terms of keeping Pc un-watered down if it's restricted to PDC grads?

    I heard what you were saying in the blog, but the implication was that the only people that can understand Pc are PDC grads. I'm curious about this, because particularly here in the South Island of NZ, Pc is far more widely known than just via the PDCs. I think these people need to be included in the big push to get Pc recognised and taken up, but I'm unsure how that can be done without watering down what Pc is.

    I talked with someone recently who had been at the PINZ national hui (NZ Pc national meeting), and apparently many of the old permies were wondering why after all this time Pc hadn't blossomed in NZ. I think it is blossoming, but informally, and perhaps the way forward is to give people who are on board but don't have access to PDCs yet a way of upskilling how Pc gets learned, taught, promoted.

    Maybe this isn't the job of the PRI (it makes sense that you all would be focussed on the PDCs). Maybe the informal permies need to sort this out and find ways to network and cross pollinate with the PDC crowd.

    There is a Pc course being taught through one of the polytechs here. It's not a PDC, and looks like a 40 hour course. They call it Permaculture Design and it's taught by a permaculture teacher who did her own PDC with Rosemary Morrow. I'd be interested to know if graduates of this course will be allowed in the WPN:

    https://www.slideshare.net/hortykim/permaculture-design-v101

    I know someone who's done this course in the past. It's aimed at people wanting to learn Pc and apply it within their own lives. It seems that these people are really important for increasing uptake of Pc too, bearing in mind that most of these people will probably not have time, money, or need to do a full PDC. They will however be the people who will promote and teach permaculture design to their neighbours, children, colleagues etc, and share with them the skills to change their lives and communities.

    Sorry to be going on ;-) but seriously, if we are to embrace a locally based way of being human we need permaculture to be accessible to many many people, and I'm curious to see how the PDC and WPN vision works beyond a certain point. There will always be people who can't or won't do a full PDC (most of the population in fact). How are you going to get them on board?


    As an aside, I think it's a mistake to promote the WPN as 'Facebook for permies'. It's one thing to set up an online network for people who have PDCs. It's another to set up a social networking site based around permaculture, and then exclude a whole bunch of people who are naturally interested or already involved. Personally, my emotional response was to go 'whatever', turn away and go somewhere else. I'm sure I'll get over that, but there will be others who won't and who will see the WPN and therefore permaculture as a whole as elitist. I think how you promote this is important. Most people see Facebook as being open and inclusive and will find something that is not offputting.

    I'm still not clear how non-registrants will take part in the site, but I assume that will be clearer once it's up and running. It does look like an awesome project, so I hope this feedback can be of some use.

    cheers,
    pebble
     
  9. CraigMackintosh

    CraigMackintosh *****

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    Thanks for thoughts all

    Thanks everyone for your excellent thoughts.

    Pebble - yes, the idea behind people requiring a PDC is to ensure the aims of the system are not watered down by people who do not understand permaculture - its ethics, purpose and potential.

    The system we have built to date is a base platform that we can build on with user feedback. I seriously take on board what you're saying, and I hope that between us all we will find a way to make this work for everyone, whilst protecting the network from becoming a hodgepodge of inappropriate elements.

    It might be that we'd have another level of user - a 'self proclaimed' permaculturist who hasn't taken a PDC. These might be highly experienced 'old hands' for whom taking a PDC today would not give them any advantage, or third world practitioners who are learning what they can in any way they can but haven't had opportunity or finances to take such a course.

    I will bring this issue to the attention of the people who will soon be let into the system as beta testers so we can consider how best approach this.

    Rest assured, at the end of the day this system is intended to help fasttrack permaculture takeup and help permies everywhere collaborate, share and inspire. We don't at all want it to be elitist/exclusive - we just want to see it absolutley ooze with pure, positive permaculture influence.

    At this point I'm thinking of having another badge for people who have not taken a PDC - something like 'Guest' or 'Without PDC'. There will be a reputation system incorporated, and these people can still grow a high reputation based on their profile, and, in particular, their updates.

    Feel free to keep firing thoughts at me. I am making note of the best suggestions.

    Between us I think we can make this something awesome.
     
  10. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Hi Craig ...After 22 years of Permaculture,I "dont Want to be a guest"

    Its a bit like saying you cant join our bike riding club, coz you.. havent completed the Tour de france..

    I understand your suggestion regarding the watering down of permaculture....

    When bill was teaching us this in the late 80s..charging for a service was the"big thing" those days,money,money,money,and credibility...

    Bills reasoning was (i think) learn permacullture,get certified and go teach the world..... Lotsa lotsa people got on board,here in the west any how......can only speek for wa..

    So everyone was looking for someone to teach us all so we could all go be "permies"........

    One problem was a SHORTAGE of teachers capable to teach a PDC course...... (Not many still me thinks)

    NOW if that didnt make things hard,most courses were very expensive $2/300 per course, over certain weeks or hours,,,,,,BUT only if the course attracted enough "paying customers"

    No one that i could find,could help me...I went to Mt lawly Permie meetings, for couple years,learnt lots met lots,we all had the same problems.....

    People probly gave up after a while or stayed at home in there gardens and hopefully most are still "DOING PERM STUFF"..

    I dont like the "reputation" bit,not if humans are in charge of making desicions....

    Why cant we Use PERMACULTURE as official like organic... etc..and have people visted and certified as individuals like organic farms etc etc..

    Wed also need to be democratic as well and have some thing set in stone as "PERMIE" rules Eg uses or various chemicals or on non/hybrid seeds. Or Bills favorite...LAWNS :) Etc Etc.

    PERMACULTURE has GO BIG NOW, or its gonna be too late for some of us.''

    Being a face booker is not same as a face book for permies.... AS facebook is in the hands of well god only knows,and face book knows more about most people the the C.I.A F.B.I and all..
    I hope permaculture dont want all my info as well now lol...

    Im trying to be positive about this craig....... This board probly helps more people then the "board could even guess" and yet we treated like no bodies,cos we just piddly arsed anarcistic non cerified "PERMIES"

    I reckon we have cramped the coffers of course givers cos we give all our informtion out for free.

    Less then a year ago maybe longer we were arguing the toss in here about "JIMS PERMACULTURE" Dont think jims was too populer after..

    IF thats not watering down permaculture for Exposure or being COMMERCIAL... well i dont know......

    FF,S if theyd suggested "BILLS PERMACULTURE" Id of been on phone str8 away for interveiw for a job... BUT JIMS?...

    The more you pester people about changing the less chance you got of them changing...... We Gotta Lead By Example,as someone wrote, we gotta bring the back garden to the front garden..

    we gotta show off our garden, A sort of comming out of the shed lol :)

    We need a figure head(s)

    Thats all for tonite Craig thanx

    Tezza
     
  11. Burra Maluca

    Burra Maluca Junior Member

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    Just a quick thought - how about, instead of 'guest' or 'without PDC', can't you give a few 'honorary' PDCs to people like Tezza? A bit like the way they give honorary degrees at universities, ie by special invitation only? They actually seem to have more respect than the usual degrees, and maybe adopting the same word might make all the difference. What do you think Tezza - is 'honorary' much better than 'guest' for you?
     
  12. MoD

    MoD Junior Member

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    I'm on the side of not needing a PDC. Wonder if Bill Mollison has taken a PDC? Taught them sure, but taken one? Guess he can use one of the 'without PDC' badge...

    I took my PDC (via Geoff and Darren) but I know others with a PDC that can't tell the difference between a gabion and a grapefruit.

    My next door neighbor took his PDC with the Bullock brothers (at least that's his claim) 10 years ago and he's done almost nothing with it. All he's done is plant a few fruit trees with no supporting plants/trees. All watered with sprinklers/city water while he doesn't even capture the rain water off his roof.

    Have other friends that took their PDC local and all are very disappointed with the course due to the instructor.

    Having a PDC doesn't mean much unless you are actively using that knowledge.

    Best place to learn ABOUT permaculture is at a PDC...best place to LEARN permaculture is on site doing it.

    Didn't Mollison say something to the effect that "you're not a permie until you've setup a system that when left on it's own will continue to improve itself."? Or something like that?

    I understand the want to have some sort of standard but I don't think a PDC should be it. How about pictures, writeups about the permie things you've done? Think that would carry more weight than just having a PDC. Or how about just having stuff like PDC, years doing perm etc. listed in their profiles. That way the end user can determine how much credence to give to a user. I'd take advice from a 20 year permie without a PDC before someone who just finished a PDC but with no practical experience.

    D

    also not liking the 'facebook' for permies angle. Just carries along with it the negative aspects of all invasive data-mining marketing monster that is FB.
     
  13. Adam

    Adam Junior Member

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    I think it is definitely important to include anyone who self-identifies as a permaculturist within the network, PDC or not. However, I also think there should be some way to differentiate easily between people who have not completed a PDC, people who have completed a PDC, and those who have diplomas and are able to teach PDCs.

    Perhaps a little icon on their profile as well as a different color map icon? I modified the sample image a little bit to give an idea of what I mean.

    Anyway, just my two cents.

    [​IMG]

    Uploaded with ImageShack.us
     
  14. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Thanks Burra.. Honorary,Does sound Better then guest.8)8)8)

    I agree with you to MoD :y::y::y:

    Great tinkering there Adam...:clap::clap::clap::clap:

    Thanks for your inputs and support..

    Tezza
     
  15. CraigMackintosh

    CraigMackintosh *****

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    Hi Tezza. I appreciate your concerns. I share them also. I'd like to solicit help from you all in regards to what to call the permie-sans-PDC (practitioner without having taken a PDC). At this point I'm thinking of just calling the person 'Member'.

    Re the reputation - don't worry, it's not being built based on external decisions, but based on your own activities. It will be based on an algorithm that considers two aspects: 1) how many 'followers' you have, and 2) how many updates you make. The purpose of the system is to get people telling the world what they're doing, and the why and how of it - thus not only inspiring them to do likewise, but educating them how to do it. If you make more updates, but they suck, then you won't get many followers. If you make a lot of good updates, you'll have lots of followers. So, your reputation is wholly based on you, not admin or other.

    Re Facebook knowing more than CIA. I also value people's right to privacy. As a member, your email address is not visible or accessible. There is an internal messaging system instead. Like with this forum, if you give out your address it's wholly your call. Additionally, you are welcome to enter, or not, your location details. Putting yourself on the map is optional. The only compulsory location info you must enter is the State and Country (just so people have a better idea of the climate and situation you're in).

    >>we gotta bring the back garden to the front garden

    That's the whole idea behind this database - show the world what is possible.

    Thanks all - please continue to contribute thoughts and ideas so we can build what the community needs.
     
  16. CraigMackintosh

    CraigMackintosh *****

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    Just discovered there was a 'page 2' here after putting in my last comment.

    I don't have time to go through it all, but all of what you're talking about is already incorporated into the system. The only thing I need to do is figure the best name for a non-PDC member. I'm thinking just 'member' is easiest.

    In regards to displaying badges - that's already incorporated. After launch, we can tweak based on feedback if necessary.

    Re the 'facebook' aspect - my using that term was (intended) to project the idea that this system is a way of networking, but specifically for permaculturists, and based on permaculture ethics. As such, I assumed people would consider this database as having the positives of Facebook, but without the negatives (otherwise why would I bother making it - I'd just send you all off to use Facebook instead!), and being tailored specifically for permaculture needs (incorporating a map, climate zones, etc. etc.) it would surpass Facebook in almost every way.
     
  17. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    'Member' seems fine to me as the non-PDC badge.

    How about three levels of membership? Qualified (PDC, Diploma, etc), Unqualified, and newbie* (only with better names). That way you don't have very experienced unqualified permies in the same bracket as people who know nothing about Pc.

    Or are you thinking it still won't be open to the general public? If that's the case, how and who will decide who becomes an unqualified member?
     
  18. geoff

    geoff Junior Member

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    How about "practitioner"? You could have a Practitioner, a Qualified Practitioner and a Qualified Teacher.
     
  19. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    ... and then you've got qualified horticulturalists, landscapers, gardeners etc, who use permaculture principles and practices but not formally PDCed...
     
  20. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    How about catering for the "spirtual Permaculturist,with no formal training,but considers himself a clone of Uncle Bill,and has totally banned all chemicals in mygarden,and has promised to FREEZE my prices in any general sales of permaculture type sale items,and take time to improve the lives of others around me, and the countryside that surrounds us all"

    8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)8)
     

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