Help Develop the Worldwide Permaculture Network

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by CraigMackintosh, Sep 29, 2010.

  1. CraigMackintosh

    CraigMackintosh *****

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  2. sampsms

    sampsms Junior Member

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    As a Permacultureist, and a positive forward looking individual, I believe in the sharing and disseminating of permaculture principles.- either free or in a controlled and validated system. I see all the time, people like Jahan (Leo) saying we don't need a PDC and rebelling againtst the structure of a standard level of knowledge. (usually called PDC or permaculture certificate or whatever.
    Its ok to Rebel against authority and control, but let's not promote negativity and fraud. I say fraud, because, whether Bill Mollison holds the copyright to the word Permaculture has not been tested in court yet. He claimed copyright in 1993 and again in 2003, and how one relinguises that copyright is a matter for the appropriate court. Whether anyone teaching (for financial gain) should hold a PDC, is not the point. If anyone professes to teach, they should have a minimal qualification in order to show "due diligence" (your duty of care to protect yourself from litigation) and to show their potential customers that they do indeed have a "certificate" saying so. Permaculture international.org have a set of qualifications attainable and the Quality system showing how to obtain that. (VETAB accredited etc) Whether or not that is desirable, it is now set in concrete, and is a standard in itself. It is already accepted by Government authorities.
    Fraud would occur when a teacher - uses other peoples work without permission. example www.Permaculturevisions.com course notes. They provide 60 pages of free information and anyone can learn, and then write their own copyright material, but they can't copy and disseminate other peoples work. If people do this, they risk expensive llitgation and huge financial costs.We can't promote and or allow people to be fraudulent and break the law. Nor can we allow Bill Mollison to set up a system of certifying people, on a train the trainer basis, then stopping it, and only certifying those people who pay him to do his courses. It's not right. it is fraud in my books. But I have not tested it in the court yet.. I may be too ethical.
    Mega
     
  3. DonHansford

    DonHansford Junior Member

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    Looking back through previous posts here and on other Permy forums, there seems to be a constant "moaning minority" who have a bug in their bums about the copyright of the term "Permaculture"
    As far as I am concerned, I gained the right to use that term in a business sense, upon completion of a recognised PDC. The copyright does NOT reside with Bill Mollison - it resides with all people who have graduated from a PDC - including me. That is the information I received on day 13 of my PDC. So you are hinting at taking me to court. You seem to have no information in your profile as to where you reside. Since the copyright was assumed here in Australia, I'll gladly meet you in an Australian court to discuss the issue.

    Just an example - in another life I was a wedding photographer. As the person taking the images (i.e. "creating" them), I owned the copyright on those images. However, if I was working for an agency, and sent out as an employee, the agency would own the copyright. One of my selling points was that the happy couple would get a cd with all the images taken on their happy day, AND a note on the invoice relinquishing my copyright over those images, thus allowing them to use them as they saw fit, even for commercial use. If you want to find out just how obtuse and confusing copyright law can be, just ask three professional photographers - you'll get three different answers, and all of them will be right, at least to some degree.

    I am happy with the way things are. I know that if I do the right thing, there will be no issues arising over my right to use the term "Permaculture" in my work, unless it is an issue raised by some shit-stirring time-waster who should have better things to do with their life than create yet more blood in the water for the litigation sharks to go into a frenzy over.

    Re: your little diatribe on fraud ("Fraud would occur when a teacher - uses other peoples work without permission. example www.Permaculturevisions.com course notes. They provide 60 pages of free information and anyone can learn, and then write their own copyright material, but they can't copy and disseminate other peoples work. If people do this, they risk expensive llitgation and huge financial costs.We can't promote and or allow people to be fraudulent and break the law.")
    Are you now threatening to take every University professor, most academics, anyone with a Phd, and every teacher in Australia, (and probably the rest of the world) to court for fraud?

    Part of the Franki Committee 1974 report on The Copyright Act 1968 stated the primary purpose of copyright law was ( "...to give to the author of a creative work his just reward for the benefit he has bestowed on the community and also to encourage the making of further creative works. On the other hand, as copyright in the nature of a monopoly, the law should ensure, as far as possible, that the rights conferred are not abused and that study, research and education are not unduly hampered.")

    You may be a really nice person, Megan, but your views in this area seem somewhat immature, to say the least. May I suggest that you go sit under a tree, and contemplate what it is you actually wish to derive from your association with Permaculture. There is enough crap going on in the world, that we are each attempting to mitigate or repair, without generating more bad energy on yet more drivel from the "moaning minority".

    Thus ends my rant! :)
     
  4. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    There's a difference between copyright and trademark. Afaik copyright would apply to a published work but not to the word or concept of permaculture. Someone might be able to trademark the word or concept but it hasn't been done yet.

    I don't know why this conversation is happening in a thread that Craig started on WPN initiative :-(
     
  5. sampsms

    sampsms Junior Member

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    Clarification:
    1. Permaculture has become a business. basically it is a philosophy, but when people are paid to teach, it is a business. , and a such should be ethical, honest and law abiding.
    2. its not me who is claiming that the word Permaculture is not still copyrighted to Bill Mollison. My opinion is that until it is challenged as part of the common language, it still is. I have no intention of doing so.
    3. Its not me claiming that anyone who was certified (given a PDC certificate) by Bill Mollison is NOT now ACCEDITED (or no longer accredited because he has stopped his train the trainer system and supposedly removed the teacher list.) I don't believe you can take back any certificate unless you can legally do so. I also object to Bill Mollison no longer giving a certificate to the down line of the teachers he accredited, YET at the same time, giving certificates to people who do his course and pay fes to him directly.
    4. If you write a course and someone else copies it and on sells it- is that OK? I'm saying it's not. It's fraud and it's stealing. There's nothing to stop them writing their own course, and using their own words. No one objects to that.
    5. if Bill Mollison has removed the teacher certified page.. that removal, in my opinion, does not mean that the person (s ) who did a course with Bill Mollison, is no longer accredited.
    6. For those Permies who think you don't need any certiificates or any proof of learning, or a PDC.. my comments about due diligence and duty of care, and vetab still apply
    This comment was written in response to abuse, threats and threatening claims being made by Leo XXXXX . . Jahan to me on the phone, and followed up by him with unsigned harrassing emails.

    I think you all ought to be aware of the arguments and responses to these issues.
    Mega
     
  6. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    What's permaculture?
     
  7. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I think they need to be aired too, although after many of these threads I wish they were aired in a way that actually clarifies the situation.

    I also think it would have been better to start a new thread. I can't see the point of posting this on Craig's announcement about the WPN.

    I'll say it again - the word 'permaculture' has never been copyrighted. You can't copyright a word. The Mollison's may be able to trademark it, but afaik I know that has never happened.

    Mollison's books are obviously covered by copyright law. I'm unclear what the actually issue is with regards to the curricula being used to teach PDCs.
     
  8. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Ha ha, spot on Grahame.
     
  9. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    We are permaculture... all of us :D
     
  10. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Like a team of ants all working together for a greater good... ;)
     
  11. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    That'll never catch on.... ;)
     

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