Has Permaculture gone commercial?

Discussion in 'General chat' started by Earthchild, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Your name and icon are neo-mini artwork, I get it, although the only restriction I have found in permaculture is the WWW forums & the myopicness of some discussions due to lack of knowledge which is the whole point of communicating with others.
     
  2. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Pebble, I thought you were directly replying to me, that's why I responded again in kind.


    I have no quarrel with you, have a great weekend.
     
  3. FREE Permaculture

    FREE Permaculture Junior Member

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    neo-mini artwork, yes that's it i think.
    my name was changed during the money discussion, I used to be called princess of permaculture.
     
  4. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    Pebble, you can't shoot #16 from across the Tasman and not expect return fire.... if i want to say something a bit nasty try to keep it more subtle or even obscure - wiki "mr kurtz" if you don't believe me.
     
  5. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Likewise :)
     
  6. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Sorry springtide, but I don't know what you mean. I posted #16 in response to FREE, who seemed to be casting aspersions on Paul Wheaton and I thought that said more about FREE than anything. Feel free to disagree with me :) I don't know what the mr kurtz reference is. Better to speak plainly to me I think.


    This is a very weird thread.
     
  7. insipidtoast

    insipidtoast Junior Member

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    OP (earthchild), I brought up this same topic not so long ago, and rather than politely ignore it, some of the senior members on this board responded in a similar way that they responded to you. If it shocks you that permaculture courses are expensive, just wait until you learn how much you have to pay to work at a permaculture farm. That's right, PAY TO WORK - even slaves don't have to do that. Also, if you're looking for overseas aid work you better have some deep pockets, because apparently no one in this wide world cares to pay organizations who are doing real work combating world hunger.

    That is the reality of this situation. It sucks, but I'm not going to complain, otherwise people on here might start telling me that the world doesn't owe me anything again.

    Welcome to the forum. It's a bitch, but at least this post won't be edited/deleted like it would be on Paul Wheaton's forum.
     
  8. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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  9. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Paying to learn on a farm about Permaculture to me is akin to being in University. I had to pay for my food, lodging, books, and so on in University, why shouldn't someone do the same when working to learn & earn their PDC?

    There are inexpensive ways to get your pdc such as the ones Gardenlen (I think) posted elsewhere, or like I did / do... Youtube, library, pdf, and lots of reading till the day you have property and your real teacher takes over... ..mother nature.
     
  10. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I agree. Where are these places where you have to pay to work? The only places I know of are where you pay to learn. Working while learning is only a problem if you don't like working, or if the work is out of proportion to the learning. That's not the impression I get from Milkwood or the Lawtons' place.

    Springtide, I'm still not getting your point. Can you not make it plainly?
     
  11. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Permaculture is free. How you choose to consume it is up to you.

    All I've ever paid for is a few books, and even then I could have borrowed them from the library. And the real learning starts when you observe and interact with your own environment. Things like internships and work experience on permaculture properties are a way of fast tracking your learning - in the end they will probably save you a lot of time and money as the teachers have often made a lot of mistakes for you. It's your choice whether you wish to take advantage of these services that other permies offer. I don't have the cash to travel to a PDC, so I learn more slowly. If I had the cash I would probably do one though.

    Another way to learn is through WWOOFing.
     
  12. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    Pebble - try "hubris" as a descriptor of Paul.
    Every one else - sorry for disrupting the thread again, I still sand by what i said earlier - that people often do not appreciate a "free" cure or information, by not paying for it they doubt it's value. Thats why i like this system of information that seems to be presesnt whereby you can get some free info, do lots of research and try to figure stuff out for yourself - it gives me the feeling i am making something "golden" in my backyard. For the people who can afford it, don't have a slightly "hippy" upbringing, or like their learning and discovery more structured then they can go and pay for it. Something for everyone i guess. You have to remember though that marketing costs money - and i don't mind how permaculture gets taught as long as it is taught and people listen.
    Again - do you prefer the journey or the destination?
     
  13. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Insipid,
    Your posts were nothing like Earthchilds'.
    They at least bothered to explain what their concern is and contribute to the conversation in a meaningful way, even if this has got somewhat heated.


    Free baby,
    nothing is ever free.
    I have never paid to do a PDC and in all likelyhood never will,I dont understand why some people give the impression that you Have to do one in order to be taken seriously.
    To me doing and learning in the process is just as informative even if it takes longer to get there.
    There are plenty of books out there to either borrow or buy.
    I like to have my own hardcopy so I have a shopping list and every now and then will treat myself.

    Earthchild,
    As I read it you are trying to come to terms with a legit disagreement.
    There has to be a cost in this day and age just to cover the running costs.
    If they are charging too much then just dont go there.

    Restricitons of Permaculture?
    What restricitons?
    I dont understand that bit.
    Can you explain what you mean.
     
  14. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Hubris... I get it now, thanks Springtide. I'm not that comfortable with talking about people we know in public but behind their backs so to speak. I bet there are people who think Mollison is a right bastard (I don't know him, but he seems kind of familiar. I have an appreciation for right bastards, some of them). Paul offers a tremendous service to the permaculture community and the world at large. Because of that I'm willing to forgive him things that I might not in others. I don't believe that the world should be full of angels ;-) If people have some beef with him, that's fine, I just find it a bit annoying to have it come up in conversations here.
     
  15. Rob Windt

    Rob Windt Junior Member

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    A timely post today from Ran Prieur

    November 13. Tim Boucher asks a good question:

    "Do you know if there's any stipulation that prohibits the permaculture design course/certificate from being offered for free? If permaculture is this system that can 'save the world' or whatever, why is the course only being offered at around $1000 a pop? They should be giving it away on street-corners.

    When I was in Greece earlier this year, I heard about a permaculture speaker in high demand, I forget his name, whose 'honorarium' for speaking at events was now something like 5000 euro, plus he demanded that airfare, accomodations and food be provided in addition for his family of five people. Total insanity!"


    These are two different issues. In the conference I just went to, the lead organizer lost money, I subsidized some of his losses, and I don't think any of the instructors made a profit. All the money went to renting the classroom space and sleeping space, paying the food workers, and promotion. The problem here is that permaculture is stuck in the middle class. If we were rich, we would already own the buildings and workers; and if we were poor, we would all be willing to camp out and bring our own food. What we need are Permaculture Rainbow Gatherings, where 50 people meet in the forest for two weeks, pack everything in and out, and leave with certificates. I don't think the permaculture establishment would have any problem with this, as long as the instructors were qualified.

    The other issue is that some permaculturists become famous, and fame is a mental illness in the followers of the famous person. The high-demand speakers are only following economics. If you want to do five talks a year, and you get five hundred offers, you're going to raise your fee until you only get five offers. Would you pay more to see the Pixies than a good Pixies cover band? Why?

    In my podcast I said that permaculture is a brand, and that it could go bad. Specifically, I'm thinking it could become so fashionable that it would be taken over by followers of fashion and the predators who feed on them. This has already happened with the word "natural" and we're halfway there with the word "organic". But this doesn't stop us from continuing to follow the better things that the words used to point to. If you're paying attention, people who are not paying attention are only a minor obstacle.
     
  16. FREE Permaculture

    FREE Permaculture Junior Member

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    because the pixies Are the Pixies, but if you asked me to pay to see meatloaf, i'd rather see the cover guy :)

    Permaculture Rainbow Gatherings sound pretty :) but is 2 weeks enough?
    my head would explode if i didn't have any experience in PC or gardening in general before hand, and went in trying to absorb everything I could in that short time.

    then pop out the other side with a certificate? it's almost like doing a first aid course and all of a sudden your set to saves lives, i've done 4 and i'd still hate to have to use what i learnt in a real situation, it's more about the burden the course has put on me, the fact that i'm now meant to apply it on others.

    cognative load theory i think is what it is.

    anyways..

    Ran Prieur has written a little masterpiece there, kinda blew me away, it's what i would of said if i was as clever as he :think:
     
  17. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    Rob-I'm sure it could be offered at no charge, but you have to find somebody who is willing too ignore all the time and money they themselves spent to learn it in the first place.
    Also, people who have dropped a chunk of change too learn something tend too stay focused thru the course. When you have a free course you get thoses who are "just there" for other reasons (ex. monoculture hardliner whom has come to prove that permaculture is wrong). These types of people can disrupt/hinder the learning for everyone else.
    As such the group is easier too keep focused on the subject at hand.
    Buttttt, if you do get a PDC anddecide to teach, or if you find a free course then PLEASE let me know.
     
  18. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    The most efficient way to obtain/provide Permaculture information rigorously at no additional cost would be from Permaculture parents to their children.

    Perhaps we're of the first generation parents ... I know I have, and continue to provide Permaculture information to my daughter. Her observational insights have become quite sophisticated by Permaculture standards. Looking at human transition to Permaculture as a multi-generational process instead of just "cost to me in my lifetime" changes the economics of "cost" considerably.
     
  19. insipidtoast

    insipidtoast Junior Member

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    I'd like to further steer this thread. I'm very interested in teaching permaculture. Can anyone recommend any materials and/or mentors and/or experiences that would prepare me to teach courses? I have a pretty good understanding of permaculture, but I'm not sure I'd be able to articulate that understanding to others in an engaging, sequential way.
     
  20. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day insipidtoast

    Three things...

    Firstly, read this: Holmgren, D. (2003) Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability

    Secondly, undertake this: PDC (of your choosing)

    Thirdly, use this: Holmgren, D. (2010) Permaculture Ethics and Design Principles Teaching Kit (2nd Edition)

    Cheerio, Markos
     

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