I question the ethics of the Permaculture movement, and particularly the commercial aspect of teaching facilities. Has aspects of the Permaculture movement gone commercial? Why is it that permaculture training properties have sprung up offering to teach you a set of principles and way of living, ie learning a 'culture', for large fees, that seriously, one would need to have a moderate wage, to afford? Isn't the whole Culture of PermaCulture, to be sustainable, and live self-sufficiently. If you were truly living self-sufficiently one would not need to earn such large profits, as businesses do. Is this why Bill 'went to ground' and back to Tassie? It seams that to be a Permaculture-ist, you also need to run courses to earn a living. Is it not possible to earn a living as a Permaculture Farmer? Is there anyone out there who is living self-sufficiently following the Permaculture movement? Why are course costs charged at private industry rates? Doesn't this merely perpetuate a commercialised way of behaving, thus passing on commercialism to the fee payer? How about charging REASONABLE costs for their courses, or at least provide places for low income earners (Principle 8: Integrate rather than segregate, Principle 11: Use edges and value the marginal). All Permaculture teachings can be found in other great teachers and movements, FREE. I trust that this post will be taken with Principle 4: Apply self regulation and accept feedback Regards
Hi Earthchild, This topic has been discussed to death in previous threads. Recently even. Do a search of the old threads and it should turn up plenty of bedtime reading for you.
I agree. There is plenty if discussion in past threads, including ones about free or low cost courses. I'd also suggest going to permies.com and looking there for similar information. Please also be aware that we operate as a community here. You have come into this space without introducing yourself, or taking the time to talk with people here and immediately opened two contentious threads. There is nothing wrong with those topics, but I am raising an eyebrow at how you have asked about them.
Hi pebble, Cool, if you or GrahamE could tell me some tag words to search for or thread areas I can go read what other people have said. My searching is showing nothing. Thanks for the website too. Re community.... Hi I'm Earthchild, dont mind my scorpion ways, i'm short and to the point and usual on a mission, not a good diplomat, and only talk about myself when asked. What do you want to know? People come in all shapes and sizes and communication styles, so I don't apologise for my style. Raise em eyebrows and roll with it.
Try typing money AND free AND permaculture in the search window and you'll have enough bed time reading for more than a few nights. As pebble is politely trying to point out - there are a lot of regulars here who have been around long enough to see new people come in, ask this exact same question, fire off a handful of insults and stalk off into the sunset again. Please don't be that person.... If you genuinely want to understand why it costs money to teach courses then there are folk here to do it who can explain it to you.
Yep there has been lots of discussion about this. Earthchild what you consider "REASONABLE" may be something entirely different to someone else. Courts struggle with the idea of reasonableness everyday. I paid a reasonable amount by my standards to do my PDC. What I learnt by far outweighed any monetary costs associated with the course. I decided to invest in my learning. There are many ways to learn. If you don't like the costs don't do it. There are plenty of resources around. I get the feeling that if a person does something to help the world or people or environment in an ultruistic manner, they are expected to do it for free or for an amount that would not support them in life. I have seen this in the healing community. Gifted healers are condemmed because they charge for their services. In my experience sometimes people do not appreciate things that are freely given. I don't know why this is so, but if something has a monetary value then in the minds of many it is more valuable and treasured. Just my opinion.
I Kind of hope permaculture becomes as commercial as coca-cola, there will always be a place for the wiser people who take interest in the "journey" as well as the "destination", but if a hundred million westerners all decided to pay five grand and take up low impact living and permanent agriculture tomorrow then i for one would be "fully stoked".... Drinks on me!
Are you joking? Perhaps you do not know. Those threads at "Permies" are either deleted, or posts are changed by the owner / moderator with no Terms of Service agreement as they chose, and as such are constantly committing libel. Ethics discussions there have been deleted, or changed for a long time now at that site, and I will not support it, or discuss it anymore. :bow:
Paul Wheaton is pretty upfront about how he runs his forum. I agree it's not for everyone, but I find it a good place to discuss permaculture. I posted there a while back about low cost permaculture courses.
when googling the words.. 'Me' & "I" 400,000 search results lead me to permies.com all the Me's and I's were posts from paul wheaton
I'm at home on permies and PRI. I understand some people are uncomfortable with Paul's way of operating, but while 'freedom of speech' is an admirable concept, in the internet reality, allowing someone 'out there' to air their attitudes/obsessions/crackpot theories at will and without limit can have very negative effects.
Looked at that site, read a fair bit - and i think it's being run by a "Mr Kurtz" up a Congo river... and i now feel a bit more sane - over all a good experience!
"or discuss it anymore" Then why are you discussing it, Pak? I think there are legitimate criticisms to be made about how Paul runs his site, but people just slagging him off here on the PRI forum seems not in the least useful. I don't see how it serves permaculture or anyone really.
Meant to ask... FREE Permaculture, are you offering free PDCs? Or working towards free PDCs being available? Can you please tell us about your work?
absolutely, but i think you don't get my user name, the "free" has nothing to do with $$$, get $$$ out of your head mate. Free as in freedom of permaculture, you see the baby behind bars? there's no $ signs, the baby represents people that don't know about permaculture, the bars are the restrictions of permaculture. so hows that sweetheart? got it now? :n:
Not really. I think you have more of a hang up about money than I do. Do you know yet what I think about money and permaculture, and what the restrictions are of and on permaculture? Or what i know or don't know about freedom, in its many forms and conceptions? I don't know much about what you think yet, because instead of communicating that clearly you're choosing obtuseness. And, really, was it necessary to be so damn patronising?
