Guns?

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Michaelangelica, Sep 1, 2012.

  1. Curramore1

    Curramore1 Junior Member

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    You use guns on people?

    I take a call at 3.00 am. from a neighbour of my farm near town 20 km away that wild dogs are attacking their cattle and would I come and shoot them. They have no guns because the shit they have to go through to prove that they are honest people and the archaic storage regulations. Next day , can I put an old horse down as it can't get up, a dog that is too old to work and has health problems and needs euthenasing, a cow that has tried to calve and both will not survive. The list continues. I don't live in a city or town and a gun is to put animals out of their misery or for food. I am so fed up with the over-regulation of firearms here as they relate to the 95% of the population that reside in towns and cities. Would you rather I bludgeon my old horse or dog , companion and work-mate of 10-20 odd years with a lump of wood or a sledge hammer? You bartards! Do you think that we can afford $20000 a year odd in vet bills for gallons of green dream, vet fees and 10000 km of vet travel? Would you rather die from an unseen bullet or a slow injection or to just starve to death? If I kill a beast for rations do you want me to electrocute it, stick it and let it bleed to death or something as barbaric. Get real you unrealistic pricks, why would you need a gun in the city or suburbia? 90% of Australians live in cities or suburbia, why do they require a gun? Only 5% of Australians are involved in rural industries or employment. Why cause all this grief for those that need these tools as part of their occupation and for the benefit of their charges. Sure, get guns out of suburbia , but leave the genuine tool users alone! I am so sick of this gun debate bullshit which always refers to those used for crime, city dwellers and militia. There is no debate, why have a gun if it's not a necessary part of your work and for the benefit of all society? It's never been part of our constitution. A rifle in a modern military invasion is about as useful as a pinch of shit in a thunder-storm anyway.

    The gun laws introduced here in Australia have not lessened gun related crimes as they will always either make or obtain illegal weapons for criminal intent. Any idiot can make a weapon. Firearm or other.
    Different rules should apply here. 99% of the population occupies 1% of the land area. We are amongst the most urbanised population in the world, you may think of the Aussie of the outback, but they are less than 1% of the human population here. Guns are for the 18 and 1900's. Words and wealth have far more power.
     
  2. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Gun deaths have steadily declined since gun control laws changed. That is FACT.

    I have lived in rural Australia on a property all my life. Anyone who needs a gun for the purpose of euthanasia of stock can and does get a gun license if they are fit to have one. Regulations regarding storage are sound and sensible. Everyone I know who owns guns have no problem with it. We personally do not own a gun because I will not have one on the place but by the same token we do not farm animals we only have 4 horses, 4 dogs, cats etc. I use vets to euthanase our animals if necessary (fortunately very rare occurrence) and have witnessed over the years three dogs and two horses put down in this way. None were a lingering death - on the contrary they were rapid and without suffering.
    If you legitimately need a gun and you are of good character and fit to have one you can get one and use it. If you are a target shooter like my partner you can go through the necessary process and own a suitable firearm or use ones owned at a registered club. Period.
    I fully support our current gun laws and I believe the vast majority of rational thinking people in Australia do so as well.
     
  3. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    Guns just make your list easier, not impossible. I'm sure there are homemade recipes to inject in to a dying, injured or sick animal(finding one on the internet is near impossible, so local knowledge may have to prevail), maybe even injecting air in to a vein(I have no idea if this is painful). Wild animal protection, on the other hand, is safer with a gun...unless you really like archery or are crazy enough to use spears. Bigger and meaner animals can also help with wildlife problems(fill the niche with your own pack of dogs). As you said, guns are tools, but not the only tool in the shed. When you rely on a single tool to do many jobs, you're opening yourself up to problems when that tool isn't available anymore.

    It also seems silly(not your fault) that in a rural setting there wouldn't be a more local vet since farms were where vets did most of their work in the beginning. I guess that's just another sign of how far we've removed ourselves from our food.
     
  4. Curramore1

    Curramore1 Junior Member

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    Gun deaths have sure declined, but have deaths overall due to suicide or murder per capita decreased?
    You must live in a different part of the country to me. Most of my rural neighbours have given up with the crap and don't have firearms at all. Our local office is open for a few hours each week, paperwork here takes months to reach completion. I do not disagree with the regulations regarding storage and use of fire arms. Why have one though if you live in the city? Does your closest vet live within a 50 km radius? Mine does not. Does it cost you a minimum $500 per vet call? Last firearm I bought had a 6 month paper processing delay due to inadequate police firearms licensing staffing. I have 500+ breeders and replacements, 100 odd bullocks, 30 odd horses, a couple of hundred sheep. 20+ working dogs etc. This is my fifth firearms license , the next requires a couple of hundred dollars to obtain yet again. Rational thinking people should think that you do not need a firearm if you live in the city was my point. I am part of the minority financially penalised by the laws designed to stop criminals having firearms. Do you think that criminals have less firearms than they once did? Just less legally obtained ones. If you do not need to control feral animals or euthanase livestock why have one? What difference to a target shooter to do it electronically or simulated, what a waste of ammo.
    Wild dog numbers here have reached ridiculous levels with sheep, goats, alpacas, poultry etc. and valuable horses unable to be left unfolded at night. Feral pigs are rampant, never seen here before in such numbers. Widespread local government 1080 baiting is now carried out twice a year to no avail. Foxes are now commonly sighted in daylight hours, there have been several near fatalities involving feral deer and motor vehicles. You must be relatively wealthy, most of my elderly rural neighbour farmers would find $300 odd dollars a pop a financial strain to have a horse put down, an injection is never as quick as a bullet, you have to yard the animal, restrain and inject. My horses and dogs would know that something was afoot long before a needle was shown.
     
  5. Curramore1

    Curramore1 Junior Member

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    I can assure you that an embolism caused by injecting air into an artery or vein would be the most painful and barbaric death. I would rather have my throat slit. The majority of Vets these days are for smaller animals in large centres where the money is. The costs of fuel, vehicles and time restrict the viability of their use in todays rural enterprises. Sure, there are large animal veterinarians, just their fees and availability aren't in line with real rural livestock production returns. If the vet fee is three times the value of the animal, then start to dig a big hole. Unless of course it is a child's pet or a valued working dog.
     
  6. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Yes, rates (per capita) of both suicide and homicide have decreased markedly, as briefly discussed already in this thread here, and in much greater detail (in the original article) here.

    I think the wider point that you are trying to make is (and please, correct me if I am wrong): guns do not kill people, people kill people.

    However, my point remains: If we want people to stop killing other people - either with guns, or by any other means - then we have to first better understand why it is that people wish to kill other people in the first place. Of course, and as I have constantly stated throughout this thread, education is (as it is with most 'problems' of the world) the key to gaining this better understanding. The added bonus of increasing the rate of free, secular and universal education within a given cohort of society is that the rate of violent crime (committed with or without a gun) within that same cohort decreases, as discussed briefly here, in another thread and in greater detail here, in the original article.
     
  7. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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  8. hazelnut

    hazelnut Junior Member

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    "However, my point remains: If we want people to stop killing other people - either with guns, or by any other means - then we have to first better understand why it is that people wish to kill other people in the first place. Of course, and as I have constantly stated throughout this thread, education is (as it is with most 'problems' of the world) the key to gaining this better understanding." ecodharmamark

    For the recent massacres in the US, Ive noticed in nearly every case the shooter is killed by police trying to control the situation. We may never know WHY? if the police had stun guns, we could put all of these guys in a pen, and study them.
     
  9. andrew curr

    andrew curr Moderator

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    Im not fit!
    But speaking from experience id rather shoot a sick cow than use an axe ; {surely the axe option cant be good for my mental health]
     
  10. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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  11. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Check out the 'Manufacturer SKU' date: April 1. Then read the comments. It quickly becomes apparent that this is an April Fools 'joke'. Small things amuse small minds, I suppose.

    Watched this last night:

    ABC TV - Four Corners: 'The Hunting Party'

    Political expediency personified.
     
  12. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Markos,
    I couldn't bring myself watch it. :(
     
  13. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Ouch. That's what I get for listening to a hunter friend of mine & not observing. :rofl:
     
  14. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Sorry Pak. I was referring to the author of the said article, and the commentators that followed.
     
  15. Spidermonkey

    Spidermonkey Junior Member

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    Hi Guys,

    I haven't researched these topics in as much detail as you obvoiusly have so I'm happy to be corrected on any point I make on these subjects.

    Gun Control - I had a friend who used to live in Florida and we had many heated debates on this subject. His argument was two fold.

    1) Guns are necessary in the US for home defense. I initially disagreed with this point but I have neve lived in Florida. It seems that gang violence is out of control there and many gangs initiate their members by requiring random acts of extreme violence, and that is even before you get to other motives such as robbery and settleing scores. He also argues that there are so many guns out there that even if you tried to repeal gun ownership the only people left other than police, army etc would be the gangs.

    In my opinion, even if you do need guns to defend your home I think it can be limited to handguns with limited capacity, and on top of that there are also non lethal defense options such as pepper spray and tazers.

    He also said that guns are needed to keep the government accountable. In most western countries there is no problem keeping the government accountable. In America I thought that Congress and the peoples right to vote did this. With the size of the US military I don't think a malitia is needed if the English attempt to invade again.

    Another topic in this thread seems to be about belief in Science and Religion. I think both have had an important part to play in the development of the modern world and both can be used for good or evil. Therefore I think it is down to morality and ethics to govern our society and I don't think it really matters what motivates you be it Science and the works of histories great thinkers or religion and the fear / love of god and the teachings of your religion. Or even just because you just learned right from wrong and developed a sense of judgement from your family and those around you.
     

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