Guns?

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Michaelangelica, Sep 1, 2012.

  1. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    so back to guns we don't feel the need for the protection a gun may bring to others in the secular athiest world, if someone feels the need for that sort of protection then they are equipped to kill or maim, or it can be taken from them and used in reverse.

    yep surely no one needs those of the assault classes, rural folk may need rifles but if city folk need that protection then secularism ha surely failed.

    len
     
  2. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Len, with all due respect

    A 'secular atheist' society? Exactly where have our 'friends' been espousing this notion? In Australia, we live in a secular society by name only. Secular in the sense that church and state are constitutionally separate entities (see: s116 Australian Constitution). Of course, this does not stop any form of metaphysical belief from entering into the equation of how we should govern the country - gay marriage (see: s5 Marriage Act) being the classic example. Equally, it does little to stop the drain on the public purse into religious indoctrination - 'chaplains' in public schools being a case in point here.

    As for atheism, we covered this as a topic, here, in a tired old conspiracy theory thread. Granted, Australian society is starting to swing more towards atheism in its collective belief structure, but we still have a long way to go before we could call it an atheist society. Anyway, is this really the end goal? I'd much prefer to think that we should put all of our efforts into raising the level of universal, free and secular education standards right across the board (from cradle to grave), and atheism will naturally flow as a result of this.

    I beg to differ, although I know only too well my plea will fall on deaf ears. Until such time as the six thousand year old 'history' book you refer to can be found in the historical section of my local library, I am unable to do anything other than agree with the notion that it is a collection of stories. I realise that it hurts you to learn of such things, and it is never my intention to hurt you personally. However, as a (social) scientist, I cannot stand by and allow you to state such fallacies as things of fact i.e. "much of which has been proven by ... scientists". Where? Please direct my reading to where this has occurred in the literature.

    You are not alone in your views concerning the above, but this does not mean it is an accurate view of society, either then or now. A more holistic view of Australian society from the late 40s into the 60s can be gleaned from reading the following:

    Kirby (2009) Growing up gay in Australia

    Pung (2009) Growing up Asian in Australia

    National Museum of Australia (no date) Discrimination, injustice and survival - 13 personal stories

    Regards, Mark
     
  3. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    good o! mark,

    secular is secular and athiest maybe even agnostic go hand in hand with it, i have only secular acquantences like in this forum and others. your bigot driven wisdom against the bible is unfounded, that it does not appear in the library history sections means so very little.

    are there 6k year old history books of the evolution of man or teh world there? any truth except we all came from some medieval soup swamp of slime?? with evolution religion do they have hard facts recorded by past peoples? all theory all derived in under 2k years ago, more like 700 to 1k years ago, when sages/seers and dream readers became scientists.

    and you really don't grasp religion and politics are hand in glove.

    discrimination does not come from people such as us, it comes from those defending their cause.

    when you post modern links with modern interpretations keep in mind my parents and grandparents only knew of happening in brisbane, they only had radio and morning and evening newspapers, and knew little if anything of gov' behind the scenes things, we lived in a suburb built for return soldiers there were aboriginals, germans, dutch, english, irish and the list goes on, but in those days no one was beating up the mood of one against another that comes with the secular set, who divide and keep divided. gay and asian did not factor the only gay was people sharing a good time out at the beach, asian we had chinese again no issues.

    you seem to have a deeply entrenched bias view point. where my family comes from we are very tolerant driven by peaceful exploits.

    just had very quick look at those links, yes they are your beliefs again with no long history, what england did had naught to do with my immigrant forefathers who were lied to to come here and farm and feed the new nation. if our broadsheet and tabloid press here in qld depicted what people are trying to say i never heard my parents discussing it. the links make good modern day stories.

    take care

    len
     
  4. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Nor in the scientific method, it would seem. Recently I viewed an interesting piece on creationism (see: video below). It certainly struck home the uphill battle we have in trying to secure a rational society. I understand that you may (or very much more likely, will) never come to see reason. But, I do not persevere for your interest alone. Rather, it is for those who are sitting on the fence and looking to further their education why I put in the effort.

    [video=youtube;Oju_lpqa6Ug]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oju_lpqa6Ug[/video]

    You keep making the claim there are no ethics involved in secularism. What is the basis for you claim? Why is it that you think you are any more ethical than say an atheist?

    Does the phrase, 'freedom of thought' make any sense to you? You're an enigma, Len. You want people to respect your belief structure, yet you are quite happy to denigrate others.

    Taking you inquiry one step further, what about people who have come 'from a family that was for god', but now understand the nature of the universe in a more holistic manner? I can answer this, from a personal perspective:

    I attended Sunday School from the age of about four. Not because my parents were overly religious, but simply because that was what most people did in a small rural town. However, after about 12-months of colouring in pictures of Jesus, sheep, and burning bushes, and singing songs that really held no meaning for an extremely inquisitive young person such as myself - 'Yes, Jesus loves me. Yes, Jesus loves me. Yes, Jesus loves me, because the bible tells me so' - I decided that the whole God thing was not for me. Of course, my parents were a little perturbed: 'What do you mean you don't believe in god?' But, given that they were not so set on the idea themselves, they decided that perhaps church was not for me, or for that matter, the family as a whole. So, by the time I was about 5, and upon entering primary school, I had already developed a discerning mind when it came to matters of the esoteric. Imagine my surprise then, when my beloved prep class was bombarded once a week by a 'lady from the church' who had come to tell us 'the good news about God'. And, more frighteningly, that if we were 'naughty' and did not accept God's 'teachings', we would all go to hell. I 'knew' what hell looked like, I had the image burnt into my impressionable young brain and gathered from the iconographs scattered throughout the church we once attended. I asked my mother about the claims of the 'lady from the church'. Specifically, after an event where I had been labeled 'naughty' for squirting the bread delivery lady with our back garden hose. My mother's response was quite frank: 'Well, if you don't believe in God, it stands to reason that you should not believe in hell. Therefore, you have nothing to worry about. But this does not mean that you should be free to squirt people with the hose. How would you like it if someone squirted you and made you all wet on a cold day?'

    In sum, the moral (pardon the pun) of the story is: Be respectful of others, not because if you do not you will burn in hell for all eternity, but because it is what you would like others to offer you.

    So, with the greatest of respect, Len, thanks for your continued input into this discussion re: USA gun culture and ethics. I look forward to any further points you should wish to make.
     
  5. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Thanks for all that, Len. In response, just one word, evidence. Please provide me with some, and I would be more than happy to further the conversation. After all, in the interests of robust discussion, and for over nearly a decade, I have provided you with a plethora of evidence to support my claims. But in response you have not provided me with one single piece of evidence. Surely it's not that hard, is it?
     
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    mark!

    why should i be held to evidence when you and others here can provide none to back up any of the science you peddle

    you post someones story and that becomes evidence?? how i'd like to know, and none of the stories are seeking for all to move on together.

    this is the sort of response i get often here

    so sad we cannot find common unbiased ground we are ready for it.

    no mark you have mostly provided what is called as science theory evidence, and common feel good evidence, you doubt the integrity of the bible evidence at least it is hard copy and i can't change it, is there really hard evidence as to whom was in australia first? and it does not matter as all i know is we need to come together and move on and nearly 300 years later we are going backward it appears, so there you go being open and honest just need now for some one to shoot us all down in flames.

    len
     
  7. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    I rest my case... :(
     
  8. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    Since the gun thing is out of the window, obviously, is there anyone else on these forums that shares Len's viewpoints? I'd like to continue this discussion, but it doesn't seem fair with 2 of us against Len, so to speak. Len needs a tag-team partner, any volunteers?
     
  9. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Sadly, it's all connected: fear of 'god' x fear of 'the other' = get yourself a (metaphorical, or otherwise) gun.

    I am not 'against' Len, per se. Just some of the things he holds to be 'true'. I think Len is generally a very nice, caring person. Of course, sometimes it's difficult to separate the two - the person, and the beliefs of the same - but in the interest of making our world a better place, we have to keep trying, yeah?

    Segue into my favourite rendition of JL's Imagine... gotta love that hot pink jumpsuit:

    [video=youtube;T2hvkPyiAFE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2hvkPyiAFE[/video]
     
  10. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    fear of god?

    which god or god's?

    fear from issues of people personal past is that what you mean

    my fear of God is i have faith he will see us through.

    fear of the unknown is the driver, we don't carry that fear. before you attribute fear of something to an issues in peoples lives be sure you point it teh right way, that is difficult as there is no hard copy millenia old copy for support.

    your against what i believe and without real evidence to support that bias. if you accuse someone make sure the evidence is more than circumstantial, that's similar to uncorroborated.

    this link is a song lyric:

    https://www.elyrics.net/read/r/ricky-dillard-lyrics/every-knee-shall-bow-lyrics.html

    this may say it better: https://www.elyrics.net/read/t/twila-paris-lyrics/every-knee-shall-bow-lyrics.html

    the difficulty could come from a world that is indoctrinated as them and us and all them are bad. not sure any modern singers are stalwarts of honesty, but to make a song even presley used the right lyrics taken from where people live. lennons lyrics just his dream he talks of no possessions so he lived in a humpy and dressed in unkempt rags?? bet his family still rakes in the coins. after all he only said imagine there is no heaven, was that so he could put his mind to ease that then there is no hell??

    len
     
  11. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Yeah, there's an awful lot of literature available on the topic. Of course, none of it will be relevant to your own good self. But, for the interest of others, here's a select few (disparate) papers:

    Wootton (1983) The Fear of God in Early Modern Political Theory

    Wilson (1995) The Book of Job and the Fear of God

    ... and my favourite:

    Johnson & Bering (2006) Hand of God, Mind of Man: Punishment and Cognition in the Evolution of Cooperation

    Exactly! There's just so darn many of them.

    Nup. More like fear of everlasting damnation in the fires of hell, that sort of thing.

    Interesting mix, fear AND faith. See you 'through' to where? I'm fascinated, where is that you see yourself going?

    Sorry, I don't understand the above.

    Once again, I am not 'against' you. I just don't see any scientifically verifiable evidence (as provided by your good self, or anyone else for that matter) in the existence of a god, heaven, hell etc.

    Exactly! Just because you have not had the opportunity to receive a universal and secular education does not mean that I think you are 'bad'. Quite the contrary, as all my previous posts will attest to (it's no secret that I'm an advocate for free, universal and secular education in a diverse global humanity). I simply just see you as being different - a beautiful human being in your own right. Of course, the same could be said that just because you see me as an ungodly satanist should not mean that you hold the opinion that I am 'bad'... or do you?
     
  12. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    of course mark,

    no our fear of our Lord comes from respect for him not fear of retribution, we have no fear of hell, whatsoever, your an intelligent being mark so i don't understand why you can't comprehend the fear of the unknown. we live by what God tells us so we have no fear though if things go accordingly we may meet a grizzly bloodlust end. of course science has nothing to do with God they come from paganism and mythology. i have been saying that all along if nothing else i am consistent.

    can't your sciences and soothsayers prove what happens to us when our life ends? they seem to have proof of all other matter? or do we just live a cycle then get burned or buried no purpose no goal to be charitable, tollerent and loving of others, should we bring back the alters of mythology?

    that secular thing i was educated in the everyday gov' school scenario, anyway another permaculturist says we are not secular so to speak. so far mark i don't see much humanity in lots written in these forums it is all blame the poor and exhalt the rich just like myth egyptian times etc.,.

    i don't see any other human being as different just how their minds are educated maybe.

    you judged i see you as an un-godly satanist, wow there you go making a judgement of me when you know nothing of me, here is that line again "when you judge others such you judge them using your own merits" i have made no judgement upon you or your family. i'll leave those sort of judgements to others here.

    all i can say is if you think you can't understand something i write maybe treat it with an open mind and the meaning will be see, what you said is a judgement of sorts. so if your doctrine has all the answers or any answers to all of us living happily together why hasn't it yet worked or even showed signs of working? and another judgement leveled at me i "see you as bad?", i'll leave that with you, since i have never written such.

    for as educated and experience as you seem you are not explaining why secularisation is not working.

    so guess guns will be the right of those who fear the dark?? my thing is it should be right to purchase a small callibre fire stick for foxes over the counter no questions asked as i was able to do at age 18. i don't carry hate though i had to claw my way along in this community so i could have the simple basics, they don't come as handouts.

    len
     
  13. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Thanks for all that, Len. In the interests of time, I've restricted this response to answering only your questions (and apologise in advance for my own questions):

    Oh, I can certainly comprehend why people fear the unknown - spooky stories installed into very young brains certainly go a long way to explaining this phenomena. What I do have trouble understanding though, is why when people grow up and have access to a free, universal and secular education do they still maintain this fear? But then, I'm not a psychologist, so I don't worry too much about that.

    Proof? Very rarely does science provide proofs, Len. Laws and principles, yes. But proofs? No, we don't work like that (see, for example: scientific method). As to what happens when we die? Well, I guess you would have to define what you mean by death. Generally, in the medical/scientific community, one is said to be dead when all electrical activity ceases to occur in the brain, hence the term 'brain dead'. Of course, with the wonders of modern technology, if this event should occur while one is hooked up to a 'life support' (bit of a misnomer, in the case of the brain dead, wouldn't you agree?) machine, then all of those otherwise passive bodily functions that the brain formally controlled - breathing being the obvious one here - continue on their merry way. That is, until someone 'flicks the switch'. For me, once the light goes out, the show's over - that's all folks. Of course, if one follows the bulk of Buddhist (my favourite 'life philosophy', by the way) teachings, then one's 'previous life energy' is 'thrown' into another existence soon after (the timeline varies, depending of which school of Buddhist thought one studies) death. Nifty trick, hey? Then, if you are the godly variety of life philosophers, such as you good self, then its off to either heaven or hell for you, my good man or woman (kids don't count. Sorry kids, it's purgatory for you), depending of course if you have been naughty or nice ... or is that if Santa comes and deposits presents or not? I often get the two confused. Seriously, for quite some time now 'science' has been able to tell us 'what happens'. This article does a pretty good job of summing it up.

    What secularism? I though I'd made it clear - we live in a 'secular society' by name only. For the most part, people still hold onto their superstitious belief structures. Fear (and its predecessor, ignorance) remain a big part of most peoples daily lives. As I have continuously stated, until each and every one (7-odd billion) of us has the opportunity to freely participate in a system of universal and secular education, then we have little hope of securing a secular world, let alone a 'working' one. Of course, this does not stop at least a few hardy folk from attempting to do develop the same. You can always join us, here. We would always make you feel most welcome.

    Last thing I'd like to see is any one of the (largely, through no fault of their own) uneducated, angry, disenfranchised people getting around our local community (thankfully, these people are very few in number) being able to freely possess a firearm. Perish the thought! "What's that? I can't have a planning permit. Bang bang, you're dead". Certain states (both political, and of mind) within the USA are a good example of what happens when there is unfettered gun ownership. Of course, being the good libertarian municipalist that I am, I don't want to see centralised government telling people what they can and cannot do. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that all this could ever achieve is the further dumbing down of society. Of course, we have to have some form of organisation and order permeating our communities, and for this reason (among many others, none less than the health of the global environment) is why I study and practice social ecology.

    Well, that's it from me for today, folks. I know, I know ... but I really, really have to get back to today's reading matter.

    Ahhh, such is the life of an evil, satan-worshipping, atheist, myth-peddling (social) scientist...
     
  14. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    can't be both ways secular then not, we are not secular so we don't have fears a our path through life and beyond is assured, like your buddism i guess, so you do ahve a belief which took it's ethic from God after abrahams time, suppose that's fare enough many did same doesn't make any the truth. so i need to be held to ransom because of other doings??

    spooky stories is that what secularism teaches?

    take care

    len
     
  15. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I don't mean to sweep the last 2 pages of discussion aside but I was hoping perhaps you could answer these questions for me first Len. I edited it down a little but If you could confirm or correct me in my assumptions and let me know how you feel about my questions above, it would really help me to move forward in the discussion.

    Cheers
    Grahame
     
  16. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Considering the bible was re-written in the 1500's, and the fact that the word,"Amen" is based in Egypt, predating the Hebrews... I'm good. Let me know when it goes back to guns so I can yell "Whoop de doo" again.
     
  17. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    Lol, that video was kind of intoxicating.
     
  18. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day grahame,

    you are asking questions that have almost nothing to do with our set of beliefs, which came long before any you mention.

    we are not into dogma of any sort that is the domain of the religions if you choose taoism that is your choice just wonder how you can decide that way if you apparently know little about God and the bible. so it becomes a pointless chat, i am not trying to convert anyone, like others seem to be by espousing the greatness of the words they believe in, where did those values begin? if the bible wasn't rewritten we would not be able to read or understand it, so for us the best is King James Version(almost word for word with Hebrew &, Waldensian), which mind you the church of rome used to read to its parishioners before they manufactured a re-write to suit their needs.

    how come we weren't failing when people did worship and go to church weekly? we have only failed when this secularism took over and people believed they then could give up those good values that taught them to live in peace and harmony. if one is going to worship taoism or buddism whatever and they come from christian based roots, WHY? why worship someone else's god or profit? when cook sailed he sailed under God's care same with Columbus and the Pilgrims, what went wrong? secularism and dropping the good values of being God's people and following His commandments. look at the US now, in sydney melbourne the gold coast at night close the shutters and keep your heads down.

    we have real wisdom using rules that only support us living as a family, my wisdom is unshakable, others even here swing this way and that ans use the ethics of some belief to suit their chat.

    since our drift away from God how do you stop the doomed society we live driven by greed and self interest. all i knew was if i didn't try to work on their grounds and to their goals i would never have even the basics, i would have loved to live my day in the sun under the shade of palms fishing and swimming, we all would, but then there is no inter-independant future in that. said in rockhampton "sitting money - no good for the people", in my work course i happily worked with all races, colours and creeds.

    the ethics i see in the other creeds all began after the 10 commandment, even what permaculture post as ethics. for those who adhere to those cultural ethics they were born into that shows they are committed human being mostly for peace, though a religion showing its colours of recent decades seems to have lost it.

    the ethics we keep are sound and moral, none of the people we know are out their causing dramas.

    don't know if this shows that the way we choose is different for all the right and good reasons, but we have love of our fellow man and are charitable in the real sense, no strings attached.

    take care grahame, your attacks on God and the bible are superficial by appearance, get wisdom.

    paka, 1500 years ago was that when the church of rome re-wrote it?

    len
     
  19. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    forgot to say (oldtimers) our creed has remained unchanged for 6k years, written in stone to say they can only be broken not changed like set in cement hey.

    blessings

    len
     
  20. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Len, countries like Australia (because of sec. 116 of the Constitution) and the USA (because of the 1st Amendment) are secular in name only. Secularism in this context refers to the separation of church and state. You seem to still be confusing secularism with atheism. Atheism is a simply the position held by some that gods do not exist. Australia is said to be a 'secular state', not because of the (growing) number of atheists in residence, but because at the time of Federation in 1901, sec. 116 was written into the Constitution. I trust that this clears any confusion in this area? Please feel free to ask further questions if need be, and I'll do my best to try and answer them for you.

    That's great. I'm genuinely happy for you.

    'My' Buddhism? Oh, that is so funny. Len, I simply referred to Buddhism as being 'my favourite [Eastern] life philosophy'. That does not mean it is 'mine'. Simply, all it means is that I admire the teachings of Buddha. They are both extremely simple and infinitely complex at the same time, e.g. The Four Noble Truths. They will always appeal to the uniqueness of the individual, rather than to the base desires and fears of the masses. They hold timeless appeal. Unlike the teachings of the Abrahamic god, as written in the KJV bible, which I find (in all honestly, with no offence meant) to be rather dogmatic simply because they are rooted in the time in which they were written.

    No, I hold no supernatural or metaphysical 'beliefs'. In my life, I simply adhere to the laws and principles that science provides. In addition, and because I am human, I help construct the unique shape of the social realm in which I (and you, BTW) live. I am, therefore I think.

    Of course not. Not that I know where this notion came from.

    Secularism does not 'teach'. It merely is a state of being, a social construct, if you will. Its time will come, and will most likely go. We (humanity) are but a blip on the universal radar. All this angst about the 'here', the 'there' and the 'ever-after' - it means very little to me. I live in the present, for I cannot change the past, nor can I alter the future. The next breath you, I, or any one of our dear friends' take, may be our last. Rejoice in the diversity that is the human consciousness. We really are amazing beings!
     

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