Guns?

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Michaelangelica, Sep 1, 2012.

  1. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    The idea that owning a gun is a human right as dear as, say, the freedom to protest, was new to most Brazilians. But the rhetoric used in the Brazilian commercials echoed talking points used by local pro-gun groups in Australia, Britain, Canada, South Africa, and elsewhere. Such a line of argument might not exist if not for the National Rifle Association of America (NRA), which had shaped, tested, and honed the message before many of these groups ever existed.

    The NRA, perhaps America's most powerful political lobby, serves as spiritual godfather to gun groups around the world. Nor does it see its pro-gun agenda as one that stops at the water's edge. Indeed, shortly before the vote, NRA spokesperson Andrew Arulanandam said, "We view Brazil as the opening salvo for the global gun control movement. If gun control proponents succeed in Brazil, America will be next."

    It hasn't worked for just the Americans, of course. During the last couple decades, the NRA has assisted gun rights advocates in fighting anti-gun legislation in Australia, Britain, and Canada. Australia was one of the NRA's earliest foreign venues, and where it made the biggest impact.

    In the early 1990s, as Australia began tightening its gun control laws, the head of the Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia (SSAA) twice visited the NRA's headquarters outside Washington, D.C., to absorb lobbying and public relations know-how. (The NRA picked up $20,000 worth of his travel expenses.) In return, in 1992, the Australians welcomed then NRA President Robert Corbin, who embarked on a three-week tour of Australia and New Zealand.

    Corbin met privately with pro-gun interests and gave media interviews. Part of his objective was to soften the violent image of the American gun lobby among the Australian public. Still, he was anything but delicate when encouraging Australian gun advocates to adopt hardball political tactics, if they cared about keeping their weapons. "They call us the Evil Empire and they hate us," Corbin said of the NRA's opponents. "But we win."

    As was the case in Brazil, the Australian visit helped catalyze the country's gun rights movement, but to a more obvious extent. The Australian group launched its own legislative action institute in 1993, inspired by the NRA's lobbying arm. Australian gun owners even organized the Australian Shooters Party, and in 1995 won a seat in the New South Wales state parliament -- reportedly the only legislator in the world elected solely on a pro-gun platform.

    Yet the NRA's Australian excursion did little to endear itself to the Australian public at large. Their link to the NRA has marked the Sporting Shooters' Association for easy criticism, especially in the wake of the 1996 Port Arthur massacre, where a man shot and killed 35 people at a tourist area in Tasmania. "The general public only sees what's in the media," says Jeanine Baker, president of the SSAA's South Australia chapter, "and usually that's the extreme side of the NRA." Baker doesn't believe the NRA is extreme, but "outspoken" -- because it has to be, she says.
    https://www.alternet.org/story/38268/gunning_for_the_world?page=0,2&paging=off
     
  2. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

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    I read on this Forum where one of our members believed that it was the right of the people to bear arms. His fear and that I believe of most U.S. people is that their Government will at some stage turn the Armed Forces on their own people in a desperate bid to stay in power. I was shocked to read this. Then around the World so many goverments do it.
     
  3. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    Righto, Brian.

    All over the Mideast.
    .My sentiments are "When the posession of all guns is unlawful, the only people with guns will be the overworked police and criminals who were criminals before the law was passed, but with just one more advantage.
    Just think..Let's go back to the days before guns, crossbows, and bows and arrows. Stones and clubs did not kill people. People killed people. Bad people killed people. Can't you just see the leader of the clan giving himself the right to posess stones and clubs, but none of the other members of the clan can have them, and when someone finds he can strangle someone else with his bare hands, a new law is passed. "All hands shall be removed at birth". Of course this would lead to two basic things. The clan would be very unproductive and , The clan would be defenseless in the event of an attack from another clan. Either fo these things would be the end for them. I should go now, as I;ve been ill for the past two days, but I'll be back.
     
  4. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    I had to go and lie down for a spell, but to finnish my last post, Brian, I would put nothing past Oboma. From downright lying about Mitt R. to ordering American citizens killed in the name of "Home Security" I saw the photo-shopped pic at the Tea party's big bash in Washington. There were not only no signs like that there, but no signs like that even allowed there by the organizer. Perhaps, in his defence, the one that put those pics was unaware that they were false political propaganda designed to show a non-violent, highly conservative (You may have a different definition of conservative where you are) party as being hateful and "mean spirited" You want mean spirited, violent and racial, look at the Black Panthers in America. There are certain things forbidden at a polling cite. One is polotickin' withen a certain distance from the entrance. The BPs were harrasing voters vocally and physically right on the steps. Charges were filed against them that were eventually dismissed by Eric Holder. the Obama-appointed U. S. Attorny General, who is the same guy saying we shouldn't have to have a pic-ID to vote, saying it is racially motivated. Meanwhile, two white men came to Holder's voting district with hidden video camera with sound, said "You have an Eric holder on the list?" The attendant said "Yes" The man then said he had left his ID in the car. The attendant assured him it was not neccesary. Go ahead and vote. The two men then left The polling place. The requirement of a photo ID would have shown that Eric Holder is black. I got out of the political discussion only because I felt my words were falling on deaf ears, and then the photo-shopped pit was the clincher, but now my Banana-Bender friend has got involved and I felt I had to speak up again. The liberal media and the entertainment business, by and large, serve the democrat party, and that's where the rest of the world gets it's news.
     
  5. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    I guarantee Obama isn't going to take our guns.

    At least not in Texas. :)
     
  6. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I can't even begin to hope to understand the American psyche when it comes to guns. Gun ownership appears to be part of a very different culture to what we have in Australia. We have very strict gun control (since the Port Arthur massacre).

    Sure there are still drug gangs in Melbourne armed and intent on killing each other, but they usually avoid innocent bystanders and just kill other drug gang members. But we don't have the homicide rate that the US has, and certainly not the mass shootings. There is no fear on the streets here that someone will invade your home and kill you with a firearm. (Unless you are a Melbourne drug gang member perhaps.)

    I remember reading years ago - prior to the tighter gun laws here - that if a gun resulted in a death in Australia the most likely scenario was that it was the teenage son in the household taking his own life. Not that someone was defending their home and family against someone else. I think it's time the US looked at some of the facts like that and started being honest about whether guns are doing more harm than good.
     
  7. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    eco, I think the belief is that successful protection of oneself and one's home with guns is not reflected in the statistics, that is, the belief seems to be that there are a lot of people who have successfully prevented burglary, rape, etc by use of or possession of guns which is not reflected in gun accident, suicide, or murder statistics. This belief is sacred. A man protects his home with his gun.

    I should add that over half of the gun deaths in the US are suicides.
     
  8. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    Ludi;

    I don't know if you are aware of it, but that's what the Eric Holder hullabaloo "Fast and Furious" was actually about, and then they tried to alledge that Bush started it. In actuality, Bush was going to pull one like F&F, but could not depend on the assistance required from the Mexican government and it went into file 13. The Obama Crew felt they could use it to boost their ability to pass a tougher gun law simply because it wouldn't work. When it didn't work and then started costing lives over here ,The law of unintended consequences took over. Taped, texted and written documents between Holder and who ever else was involved were requested. He originally denyed any involvement Then a little came out, and eventually Obummer covered him (and most likely himself) with executive privlege. It'll all be forgotten by the public. We ignorant peasants have such short memories. Another reason we need this so-smart bunch of elitists to do all our thinking for us. And Bush was not turning us red fast enough. Nancy Pelosi and her liberals in Wash. found a miracle in the wings. A student of Karl Marx. A black Messiah with a magic tongue. Bill Clinton admitted that he used the weed but never inhaled lol. The great 'ONE" had not only smoked and inhaled but had conquered the shit. He not only appealed to the blacks, the whites (If they were young enough) the Hispanics, The gays. (He would free them and make them w hole again) and the Illegal aliens (who could benefit from American taxpayer's money). The only ones he couldn't pull the wool over the eyes of were some of the old timers who had lived through the Great Depression and knew where his kind of solutions would bring them. RIGHT HERE where the dollar is falling against the Euro, which is falling against precious metals (Let who reads this, understand the implications) They needn"t worry about the oldsters, as under his plan, the seniors won't be draining money (Their money) from Social Security, Medicare and medicaid. After a certain age,we'll just have to cut back on certain life-extending proceedures. By then they'll be too feeble to even stand up for their rights ..or even handle a gun.......Gun....Yes . Isn't that what started this thread...I forget things...so easily. I'm glad you brought that up.......I'd..almost...What's that, you say, Willie? There's a man at the door with a gun?
     
  9. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    That didn't work out at all, did it? No guns got confiscated by Obama in my neck of the woods, as far as I can tell. Everyone is still shootin' up a storm! I live about a mile from a hunting ranch, plus several neighbors hunt and target practice. My husband has a couple guns. Still. In spite of Obama.
     
  10. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    Thank you, Ludi.

    I can almost understand how Eco and Michael feel, but this country has, since the early days of the Old West, for good or bad been ruled by the fast draw and the dead (no pun intended) aim. Judge Roy Bean, at one time, was the only law west of the Pecos river. A corpse was brought in, presumably killed by indians. He had forty dollars and also had a Colt forty five cal. in his holster. He fined the corpse $40.00 for carrying concealed weapons and confiscated the pistol. some reports say that the corpse also had a knife in his belt.The judge held court at one end of his bar, "The Jersey Lily" in Langtry, Texas, where the Pecos and the Rio Grande meet.He also tended bar at the saloon. He had deputies, but also paid bounty hunters to bring in "suspects". The ordinary farmer or rancher pretty much walked the line, not wanting to get on the suspect list or a wanted flyer because the the suspects were quite often brought in, deadweight accross a mule's backside. Several early American writers, notably Zane Grey, made a good living writing about good and badmen of the glorious sounding Western Frontier. Many a gunfighter has had his rep made by these writers. The pity of it was, these gunfighters, then had to live up to their, real or invented, talents. Many a poor gunfighter has been sent to "Boot Hill" by a too talented writer. My point in all this is that although the "Old west" wasn't glorious and sometimes could be disgusting, It was pictured as always somethin' goin' on. Rescuing the girl of your dreams, stemming a stampeeding herd of longhorns, The gunfight at the O. K. Corall. The government wanted the young men to "Go West". If they told these young men there would so many real perils like trying to sleep out on the "beautiful" lone prarie with rattlers and copperheads on a chilly desert night just looking for that heat given off by your warm body or trying your best to outride your buddy so that renegade indian gets slowed down enough for you to get away. Sorry, Buddy. That's life. Just staying alive out on the prarie could easily be a challange, But feed them enough of the glory they'll never enjoy and they'll save up enough to buy some old nag and pistol that'll jam the first and last time they try to use it and they're off to Abilene. The six-gun with the long barrel (not too long) was what so many kids dreamed of on the farm. A rifle or even a shotgun was maybe more practical, but he, and a hundred thousand other kids would sleep that night and dream of a "Peacemaker" in his steady grasp riding into a outlaw"s den on a gleaming white stallion to punish the bad guys and rescue that girl who paid him no attention at the general store in town last week.With these dreams as a kid and Cowboys as heros, is it any wonder the six-gun has such an important niche in our hearts. You can make all the arguments both for and against the (NOT GOD-GIVEN) right of gun ownership,but, at the final tally of Americans, dreams, not necessariky wisdom, will win out. We, over here, have an emotional attachment to the firearms of yesteryear. THE SPEED OF LIGHT, A CLOUD OF DUST AND A HEARTY "HO-YO-SILVER" The Lone Ranger rides again
     
  11. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    There is the word"be" missing in the 14th line ,between the words "would" and "so'' It should read "they told these young men there would so many real perils like trying to sleep out on the
     
  12. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I think you've captured the difference between the two cultures in a nut shell Ben. European settlers killed more of the local indigenous population here with measles than they did with bullets - that's not to say that there weren't plenty of pretty horrible massacres. But I don't think Australia ever had to DEFEND itself against others using weapons like the US has had to and that leaves a very different psychic imprint.

    We are more frightened that a bunch of people will turn up our waters in a boat than a knock at the door from an armed bloke.
     
  13. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    The article was/is about how USA is exporting, and financing its export, of gun culture in overseas countries such as Australia.

    Australia exported Permaculture and Yanks want to give us a Gun Culture in return
     
  14. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    We got that indirectly with the Anzus treaty,its made us follow them into every stupid shoot up they ever start on the planet.
     
  15. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Ha, ha, good one Ma.
     
  16. briansworms

    briansworms Junior Member

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    Ben I am glad you are feeling better. If I had half your wisdom I would be a smart man.
     
  17. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    I'm no history expert but I think the only time the US had to defend itself from foreign attack was during WWII against the Japanese. If we're going to base gun culture on the number of times a country had been attacked, England and European countries should certainly have more gun culture than the US.
     
  18. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    Ludi;

    What they, over there,(except Brian) don't seem to grasp is that I am only explaining, from first hand experience and history books, what has caused the American mindset surrounding guns and their importance, or perceived importance to our peace of mind. If anyone has left the house and realized they forgot their cell phone, that's how naked the early American, by and large, felt without their "protection". You were talking psyche, and I replied in my usual "more info than you required" fashion. lol

    Benjy



    american mindset
     
  19. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    Brian;

    Thank you for the undeserved compliment. By the time you are my age (Or before) I'm sure you'll be receiving all the kudos you will have earned,,Age before knowledge?
    I'm not yet running at full steam, But better than before.

    Benjy
     
  20. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    Michaelangelica;



    I truly hope this is not one of those one-up-manship games, but I believe we've been accused of pushing "Love My Gun Mentality" down the throats of the rest of the world, you included. The last I heard, Aussies still have the freedom of choice. If you don't agree with your own lawmakers, get rid of them with your vote. There are more of you than there are of them. Isn't that the way it's done over there. We have enough of our own problems without getting harranged by one of the few good friends we have left. Obama's strained our relationship with Israel close to a breaking point. Canada's about to ship her oil to China. England, in my eyes, is having all she can do just to keep pontoons under her. The NRA does what it does to SELL MEMBERSHIPS. That's no secret. To do that, they have to give the members something back for their dues. To
    do that they pay lobbiests to pay lawmakers. If they are honest men,(picture that) they will vote what they know is best for the people. and if not,.........But sometimes..........just sometimes.......What the lobbiest wants is also what the people want..Dittos on "Picture that". lol

    Mick. We've been friendly foes from the start. Lets just shake and bury the g....Hatchet....Or not....There'll always be Monsanto. .....Except we're both on the same side, there. In fact they are far more dangerous..


    "Ere's lookin at you"
     

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