Discussion in 'The big picture' started by tomintaz., May 21, 2010.
I suppose we could always use the gold in our bullet moulds
Though I do not know you Don, I think you may be a wicked wicked man. (wink)
Have you been talking with my ex-wife??? Her mother referred to me as "The Delinquent"! (Even when I was in the room!)
As I understand buying and selling gold.
I> You dont actually have the gold in your hot little hand.
2>You buy when the price is low and then 'sell' it when the price goes up, pocketing the difference.
What you are basically saying is that you trade in gold, like the stock market.
I see a conflict of interest.
You are promoting people buy gold because this is valuable and you feel it will hold its value meaning if people take their savings and convert this into gold; Should the global economy collapse as alot people feel that it will; then these wise people will be better off.
However, you also say that you trade in gold, ie buy gold sell gold get the difference put into your bank account to pay your bills, which means that this is actually an income producing system for you.
I object to trading on the stock market and I object to buying and selling things like gold due to the fact that you dont actually produce anything of any value whatsoever and this is one of the main reasons that the global economy is in such a shambles.
Oops, hit the wrong button, meant to preview and I aint done yet.
Buying gold would be a good idea IF it was seen as a valuable Thing.
Nowadays, rightly or wrongly, its not seen that way, its something my earrings are made out of etc...
The only value something has is that which everybody agrees that it has.
So, If someone has the plot of land and has the ability to feed themselves and trade in food,has the skills they need to do well in a collapsed economy, then having something like gold might be wise because they would have something of value that everybody wants and will use as money.
I go back to my point that most people
1. Do not have savings,
2. Have no understanding of the value of gold other than as jewellery
3. Dont know its value and dont know how to buy and sell Real things with it.
Its not what we are on its the high you are on making money easypeasy and expecting us to say "Wow I want that too".
Then you say "I can sell you some to get you started its so easy".
So its not get gold for the future and have something shiny to use as money when paper money is worthless its, I'm making a shit load of dosh and I cant see why you dont want to follow my very wise example.
I'm here because I want to learn how to use the little piece of Earth that I technically own to provide for my family in such a way that leaves things better than I found them( in a nutshell).
I come to this forum for the companionship of others who I feel are trying to achieve similiar goals and pick up ideas or pass on ideas that might help.
I feel that you are not here for that or similar purposes and dont like seeing you belittling others for what they are trying to achieve when it does not fit in with your idea of appropriate actions.
You may be one of those who has been able to use the system to thier benefit without getting burnt, but
should the shit hit the fan and we go into a worldwide depression
What are you going to do?
Are you in fact one these people that actually has their gold in their hand?
Do you have a plan of how you are going to use tHis gold to provide for your family?
That, I'd be interested in hearing more about.
Heart Before Head this Time..
Let me start this post with a personal note.
I also come to this forum for the companionship of others who I feel are trying to achieve similiar goals and pick up ideas or pass on ideas that might help. From the very beginning; I have only wanted to constructively help those who might listen. [emphasis added] It seems however I have been accused of defamatory comments; and talking down to people, this was never meant to be. So to everyone here on this forum, i'm sorry and I sincerely apologise and offer anyone one who took offence an apology; thank you.
For the last 8 years, I have seldom put forth a post on this website. Since May of 2010, a change has come from that pattern, for three reasons.
First, i'm attempting to raise increased awareness of a very real, and complex situation of a very broken corrupt financial system but with a very easy simple solution. As to encourage a wider permaculture audience in how they can protect themselves and their money, with a message that can sink in.
Second, many of the warnings have and are coming come true, of an insolvent monetary system in tatters. There is no need to repeat these warnings further, of events toward breakdown, when the forecasted breakdown has arrived in full glory.
Third, I wanted to both digest the crisis myself, to discuss and ruminate over the disaster with my trusted friends, and to permit folks to digest the disaster, ruin, and continued breakdown themselves with the help of links i have already provided. Events never occur according to a script, or forecast, or plan. Too many unintended consequences come. Complex global elements do often take a personal toll on many of us. But this my friends is history in the making, a highly important chapter of history being written before our eyes. This is World War in Finance with the AngloSphere under great pressure of losing its hegemony in the control of global financial structures. Entire national economies are at high risk. These are historic times.
Now, mischief (and others) ... let me try to answer some concerns you have about me banging on about gold and why (most) of you don't quite understand this buying and selling it online.
(mischief): you did say: "Buying gold would be a good idea IF it was seen as a valuable Thing" Your 100% right .. Why ? .. Because at all times, and in all circumstances, gold remains money.
History proves this, and as I stated earlier - these are historic times. If people actually look back to the last great credit collapse worldwide which was the 1930's, and see what happened to currencies and gold, they will obtain some knowledge that could very useful to them now. Stubborn ignorance can rationalize amost anything, and there is a peculiar tendency among people to resist the data that does not support their assumptions, until they are overwhelmed.
People are increasingly loosing faith in (fiat) paper money. It's loosing value rapidly and many understand this. That's why millions of people in the know are buying it. Gold again is increasingly being viewed as currency and a safe haven ! Here's proof.
A key area to focus on is what's happening in Greece, America and the Eurozone at the moment. The average Greek guy has now figured out that he no longer wants to hold paper, that is paper anything. These guys and gals are queuing up to cash in their bonds and equities for cash and are then queuing up to purchase gold sovereigns for $1700 an ounce (ouch) and allegedly more on the "black market".
This exchange of paper for real assets has always been the first part of an extreme/hyper inflationary process and it would seem that this process is now well underway with our Greek friends. This is not a Greek phenomenon and will be replayed in ALL of the developed countries as this process develops. This is our future folks.
The U.S. mint has run out of "blanks" again for the umteenth time after demand for the month of May set records.For those of you reading this, blanks are not the "molds" used to stamp the metal into coins, blanks are the coin shaped slug of metal that gives value to the coin. These blanks can be stamped into Kruggerands, Maple Leafs, Eagles and have roughly the same value in the market place. It is the fact that they consist of Gold that creates value.
Production of United States Mint American Eagle Silver Proof and Uncirculated Coins has been temporarily suspended because of unprecedented demand for American Eagle Silver Bullion Coins. This is another sign that people want the real metal and the shortages are becoming apparent.
The news that the US Mint sold the largest number of new 1-oz gold Eagles (increased by 214%) in May, since 1999. see: https://in.reuters.com/article/ousivMolt/idINTRE6505U620100601
Following a story yesterday June 4th about Krugerrand production rising to a 25 year high see: https://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=5499216&fSectionId=630&fSetId=662
Production of the world's most popular gold coin rose to 30 000 ounces a week, and the Rand Refinery said it would maintain this level of output until the end of July and could extend production at this rate should demand remain strong. Quote: "The last time we produced this much was 25 years ago in 1985,"
*Bloomberg then produced a similar one about Australia’s Perth Mint.
Quote: "As soon as it was announced the European Commission was bailing out Greece, the German population decided they’d better hedge their euros by buying precious metals…We had stock before this blip in the market, then it all went.”
June 4 (Bloomberg) -- Gold sales to Europe from the Perth Mint surged in May as the Greek sovereign-debt crisis triggered a flight to haven investments, draining stockpiles at the producer of 6 percent of the world’s bullion.
Buyers from the continent accounted for 69 percent of gold- coin purchases last month compared with 51 percent a year ago, said Ron Currie, sales and marketing director
So it does appear that buying GOLD does have value after all.
Let me NOW explain buying GOLD online and clarify this further for everyone reading this. Because - IT'S NOT ABOUT TRADE.
A *Gold (holding) acct. see: https://goldmoney.com is (electronically) connected to your already existing bank acct. As we already know any Bank acct. nowadays allows the (acct. holder) to access various available ATM and EFTPOS outlets offering any amount of transactions worldwide with added capabilities, functions and facilities worldwide, be it; online banking, purchase(s) through EBay, PayPal, BPay etc. via your *everyday Bank acct. or credit card acct.
When i decide to buy gold, i send money from my normal everyday bank acct. >> through an electronic transfer to my >> goldmoney acct. which is just another bank acct. (holding my cash); and and just sits there (gaining interest) until i decide to purchase gold (with some, or all, of these deposited funds) at the given current *spot gold price. Currently i just use it as my savings acct. it's actually my (Permaculture Demonstration Site and Education Centre Investment Fund) .... If and/when i do need some extra cash, for any unforseen circumstance I would go to my goldmoney acct. decide how much money i want (for whatever reason) and sell it back to (GoldMoney) at the given current *spot gold price. The *$$$* will then get deposited (the next working day) into my everyday bank acct.
For argument sake lets say you bought $1000.00 worth of gold @ $500 oz. You would have 2 oz now in your goldmoney acct. ie: (HOLDING) connected to your bank acct. If 1 year later the price of gold rises to $1200 oz; you still have the original 2 oz but your money has now increased from the initial $1000 you put in, now being worth $2400. :clap:
So, if you wanted $1800 to buy a tractor you would simply go online and *(authorise the sale, on their website, just like Ebay and PayPal), to sell 39 grams of gold, and get it out the bank tomorrow.
Currently: 1 gold gram(gg) = $AUS 46.00 [ 39(gg) x $46 (per gram) = $1794.00 ]
Some people i would understand would not be comfortable with buying and selling gold/silver online. For many reasons. Security for one, what if the internet goes down etc. etc. That's why i also STRONGLY suggest buying gold or silver by over the counter sales (OTC) in Sydney as with https://www.ausbullion.com.au -or the Perth Mint or a dozen other venues nationwide. You can just waltz in (once you've set up an acct.) and leave gold or silver in your HOT LITTLE HAND; as either (coins or bullion) that you can then store somewhere safe.
NB. @ ecodharmamark
If it all goes arse up, a community can get by nicely on their own LETS economy, but will always need some sort of valuable material for "foreign exchange" to bring things into their economy that they cannot produce for themselves, eg tools, machinery, etc. Some good old-fashioned gold and silver coin is ideal for this.
Hope this helps.
Now THAT was a much better explanation than the first one
A friend of a friend worked in the radiology department of a local hospital.
For years this guy took home the used x-ray plates and extracted the silver from them.
He had so much that he melted them down into brick sized ingots.
After about 15 years he had a heap of these scattered throughout his house, which he used as up-market door-stops.
Well of course the inevitable happened and he was robbed.
They took his TV DVD, computer etc.
He was just left with the 30+ or so leaden-gray, building-brick-sized, silver doorstops.
If you want to sock away some money BUY! Although their inability to tarnish makes gold ingots unsuitable for doorstops.
I must be thick,
I still see that you dont actually have the gold in your hand and if there is a global depression, you are still stuck with electronic value of gold that you may or may not be able to access rather than the real thing, maybe thats where I cant see this working.
If on the other hand you have the gold to buy things with, then yes.
Aside from that I found some note we took from another web site The Powerhouse, in one part it has a note from a Sarajevo war survivor who at one point said...
'After a while even gold can lose its luster. But there is no luxury in war greater than toilet paper
Its surplus value is greater than gold's..'.
I got from that that they did actually have some gold but it would be a great idea to make sure you have a stack of TP too.
You could use the rolls to prop open the door even!
Don't let Kimbo see you talking about toilet paper as a resource mischief - do you remember - https://forums.permaculture.org.au/...-you-d-wash-them-again&highlight=toilet+paper
heehee, yeah forgot about that.
I miss Kimbo.
I did take alook at how many cultures wash rather than wipe and there were and are quite afew, without a good water supply tho thats going to be differcult.
Back to the subject tho, I would love to have a variety of exchangeable things including precious metals, but I cant manage that right now.
I guess what you need really depends on how bad things are going to get (or how bad we think they are going to get), as well as what can you do/get right now, what do you have right now that would be wise to hang onto rather than take to the dump to tidy up the house and yard.
Australia and New Zealand still to some degree have the number 8 wire mentality, whereby you hang onto things that might be useful and can fixit with what ever.
Unfortuantely, my kids generation dont have this and like everything to be new and shiny, which is a worry.
It just occurred to me that this is another subject where the permaculture ethics and principles can be applied,I thought about #10, Use and value diversity....better to have a diverse rang of exchangeables than just one or two.(dont have all your eggs in one basket)
I'm using the term exchangeables rather than money because money is now in question.
Observe and interact....look at what you need and what others think they need right now and in the future
Catch and store energy...start collecting these things bit by bit (slow and small solutions)
etc.. I wont go thru the whole list here but I'm going to with my notebook cos I think this is a different way of looking at this problem which could make it easier to spread it out rather than get overwhelmed by it all.
This whole global economy thing gives me the irrits!
I was holding back paying the balance (US$1400) of my Cal-Earth course, hoping the Oz$ would rise above $0.82 - last night it dropped again (Thanks Krudd). Upshot is that the course is costing me 12% more than it would've six weeks ago. ~**Snarl .. growl .. hiss**~
I liked the Zanetti cartoon (I should try to find it) that shows a bloke going up to the roadside stall of a farmer with a wheelbarrow full of money and the farmer says "so you want a bunch of carrots but what would I want another wheelbarrow for.
Haahaahaa ... love it!!
I can tell from your posts that you are writing in earnest, even if you come across as a bit paranoid.
Have you considered the environmental toll of mining such a useless mineral?
Yes the gold price is at a record high, especially when now the aussie dollar has backed off. In fact, an efficient miner can make a profit mining gold that is less than 1gram per tonne! A huge permanent hole is created, an often acid generating waste landform is created next door and the ore is trucked along a huge road to a gold plant where the majority is then pumped out as a cyanide tailings sludge. The tailings dam eventually becomes another permanent waste landform. Not even worlds best practice rehabilitation can recreate the original ecology.
In Newmont's massive Batu Hijau mine in Sumbawa, Indonesia, the tailings are simply pumped into the sea but that at least that is along a pipeline; Freeport in Irian Jaya and Ok Tedi in PNG have used two of the worlds largest volume drainage systems as their tailings sewers. I wonder if any of your gold comes from Freeport?
My point is that it is mineral with a high cost and, considering its main use is as a crude measure of wealth in a vault, it has a pretty low value.
yeah gold is ??
its had a nice ride the last few years but if you discount it back to the 80's its a terrible investmnet
its should have been 1800/oz several years ago if indexed to CPI
ive been thinking about where to put $ too
land is no good. were in a real estate bubble
land that couldnt grow dingo piss is being sold off at 10x its value a few years ago
you would think we were manhattan or shanghai by the prices being asked
not one of the least densely populated and driest most variable rainfall places on earth
if i took all my money which ive worked had and saved hard for many years
i still couldnt buy a piece of land and shack on it equivalent to what a subsistence farmer in the amazon can get
land would be a good long term buy if you could get the good stuff.
Prime agricultural land is still cheap, in bulk orders
good land has a reserve of soil nutrients, a bank, thats not factored into the land price, yet
in a humid area a family needs abot 1 -2 ha to support itself as a smallholder at modest level with a complex mixed system of food forest, livestock and small crops
in a more arid area (500-600mm), probably 40 acres minimum. enough room for a managed forage system for fat lambs or such
the good thing about this as a backup is that the volume of land wont change much
2 ha provides the needs for humans now, and itll still provide in 50 years. its a rare fixed thing
the same amount of $ - might be a bit now, but in 50 years it might buy you a second hand car
if i already had my land to live on
and if it was planted up with a full ecosystem that supported me (your agrobiodiversity is a good Return for investmnet)
then id probably buy fertiliser
fertilizer is gold, well actually its oil
and oil is used to do everything, even extract gold
oil doesnt store well. and besides its too complex to use
but investing in a refined end product would be good
-trace elements (Zinc, copper, Boron, Manganese)
if i could id stockpile 100 years worth on farm.
it will track value upwards with the cost of extraction, labour, transport, taxes etc
you can slowly feed it into your developing system
thats what id call 'safe' money
its obvious but too bulky to easily steal
while still being quantifiable and tradeable locally as collateral or exchange
and if you really want to make sure it cant be stolen, then spread it on your field
a tonne of rock phosphate on a field is there for good, or until it is exported as product , and can be factored into the accounting
3kg per animal exported?
and then the rest you can invest in small scale schemes
a cake stall will give you better ROI than most stocks and shares
I'll probably get slammed for being too extreme or something, but...
None of that sounds much like permaculture to me Tropical food forest. I reckon if you really wanted to invest in the future you probably couldn't do much better than investing in your community. Building a resilient permaculture based community
In addition to the arguments against gold, because it isn't an intrinsically productive or useful investment, here is a discussion from an economist on why the gold price might be a bubble, ie it might already be high only because people think it might go higher..
I think this is a warning against investing in gold just because you think you will get rich.
thats ok Grahame
im a bit of an oddball myself
ill break it down
Care of the earth-
How can i improve my fertility/?
my answer - remineralize.
turn worthless plastic into precious scarce resources. remineralize my (hypothetical) acres
build deeper soils, more biology, more biomass
and within a designed system that cycles and conserves and builds on it
better than bank! i might expect 10% ++ growth rates over the long haul!
care of people/?
the food i make , and the genetic diversity i can sustain will be of most value to my community. The milk i sell, at true cost, will build strong healthy bones and teeth, the meats will build sharp minds and the vegetable will sustain one into old age.
As i know what the stock and value is of my farm, and as my product is of high quality i can spend time marketing it to people who understand getting good food at a FAIR price means less money for frivolous things. good for me, and those who understand, will know good for them. The actual cost may well be lower than the shops - if they come and buy it direct
i will commit to mainatining their health by charging true cost so that i can never deplete my soils.
return of surplus/?
Knowledge is what would make this work. Knowledge is the difference between a pauper and a scholar
For good food, good conditions and dood experience young people could come and work on the farm and learn the reality of what it takes to safeguard their community. they would learn the true accounting for healthy soils, healthy animals and top quality food. They would go home to educate their families why its better to dress like a beggar and eat like a lord.
they too could know how to invest in land and create solid viable health giving food
this is all hypothetical.
but i argue it justifies as permaculture in every way
certainly more so than investing in a weighty yellow lead-like metal
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