glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by milifestyle, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,721
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    inland Otago, NZ
    Climate:
    Inland maritime/hot/dry/frosty
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I agree. Very well said christopher.

    This is the longest of the current threads by a long shot. Why is that?

    I think there is a place sometimes for permies to talk about round-up (eg can it ever be used in a pc situation?), but I agree with christopher that these long, drawn out debates are sucking up valuable resources. I'd love for the amount of energy that's going into this thread to be going into welcoming new members, helping people with design problems, and taking a proactive (rather than reactive) approach to posts.

    I understand how easy it is to get into these polarised conversations (done that many times myself) but I do think it's good to look at: is this the best use of our time and this forum?
     
  2. Arby

    Arby Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Hello Christopher. I fully understand what you're saying and the point is well taken. However, I do think it is important --no, let me say extremely important-- for someone (us, you & me) to stand up to these pro-chemical folks.....for as long as it takes.

    I don't do it because I wouldn't rather be doing something else (I have a million & one things I'd rather be spending my time on). I don't do it because I think people like zzzzzit will listen. I do it because a surprisingly number of people think Roundup is fine to use...likely due to hearing a seemingly intelligent and well spoken person say it's one of the "safe" chemicals. Anyone could be reading these threads and if we just let the zzzzzit's of the world tout the safety of these chemicals, it only affirms what those aforementioned people think..... then they pass it on to their friends as fact and those friends pass it on and so on. Don't underestimate hearsay.

    I am constantly amazed and saddened by the type of people (including those who are thought to be environmentally aware) who think Roundup is one of the "safe" chemicals...especially if "used only on occasion" as I often times hear.

    Based on what I have observed over the years, i believe it would be a grave mistake to assume anyone is against Roundup, Permaculture forum or not. So, though I certainly would rather be doing something else, unfortunately, I feel that responding to the zzzzzit's of the world is every bit as important as any other discussion. I doubt anyone who's open and willing to take the time to check my links and/or reading recommendations is going to go away thinking Roundup is just fine and dandy like zzzzzit claims.
     
  3. caldera

    caldera Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Hi all ~

    I am in the situation where roundup is to be used for weed maintenance on a bushregen job... luckily it's the dry season so run-off isn't a huge problem

    or is it ?

    with all this talk of the reefs being seriously degraded by chemical run-off (fertalizers and pesticides)... i want to know if this includes round-up?

    i was told by my Conservation & Land Management teacher that roundup breaks down quite quickly once it has taken effect..

    what does it break down into ??? that's my question....

    don't really wanna be supporting the destruction of the Earth largest living eco-system ~

    cheers for any feedback
     
  4. Arby

    Arby Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...


    Thanks for your concern. First off, what your teacher has told you is common. My brother just spent a heap of money to become one of the esteemed "master gardeners" and his teacher taught the same thing: round-up is fine and dandy and breaks down rapidly and is the neatest thing since sliced bread, etc. This teacher even went on to teach that one can't effectively garden without chemicals. Students are paying good money for this curriculum so it must be good, right?

    Seems these "teachers" --and surprisingly, many other "experts" who SHOULD know better-- just repeat what they once heard: "Round-up is safe. Round-up breaks down rapidly" etc. Ask your teacher to explain what it breaks down into, how long it takes and how he/she knows this. Ask your teacher to explain how the chemical regulatory process works. I am confident your teacher will not be able to answer these questions without stumbling and/or getting defensive. And if he/she can, you can almost be guaranteed that he/she is a master bullshitter.

    Bottom line is that these chemicals are not tested as well as most people WANT to believe and NO ONE knows all the ramifications to Round-up...or any other chemical. Of what picture has been painted thus far though, it doesn't look good.
     
  5. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Some interesting research on glyphosate
    https://www.sott.net/articles/show/18025 ... nd-Roundup

    https://www.i-sis.org.uk/GTARW.php


    For those with a little French
    https://mondialisation.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12310


    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 1927c13fbb

    etc
    More at
    https://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/pol ... osate.html
    https://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/pol ... osate.html
    ................................................................................................

    More opinion:-
    https://www.natmedtalk.com/general-discu ... -them.html

    https://burningbabylon.wordpress.com/200 ... m-engdahl/

    To-date, Monsanto has filed 90 lawsuits against American farmers involving 147 farmers and 39 small businesses, with an estimated $15m gained from judgments granted in its favour. Since 1999, some 500 farmers have been investigated and harassed by Monsanto every year. The Center for Food Safety has set up a hotline for farmers (p.48).

    https://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis26.php

    https://www.arbtalk.co.uk/forum/tree-hea ... #post89843
    Pro Opinion
    https://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseact ... ls&id=2882
     
  6. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,590
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Interestingly,

    If all of the property owners in the fire zone in victoria this year had used a herbicide to clear their fencelines then perhaps Victoria would have had a smaller BLACK SATURDAY. At this point the overriding issue is to blame the 'gubmint' for poor advice.

    I have long been an advocate of controlled burning, the use of cattle as a fire and weed mitigant, or even chemical intervention on the edges of most forests but then again I am not a pseudo subsistance farmer in english speaking equatorial america. Australian forests carry a massive fuel load but need the catalyst of grasses and undergrowth to kick them off. Bushfires are cyclical not unique. I support the issue of boundary intervention where humans interact at the forest edge. I do not advocate the sustained attack on our bushland created by demand, land developers and HEAVEN HELP... people like permies who want to live there.

    Where I live herbicides are not widely used due to our seasons, fire management and mechanical intervention so ultimately no need really to apply Roundup or anything in its genre. Our fires are 'cold' and singe trees and fences, I cannot remember the last fatality here due to fire.

    cheers,
     
  7. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I doubt it, the dead grass would make for great kindling.
     
  8. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Personal responsibility has to be at the top of the list. The "means" of eliminating weed growth or fire hazards is the property owners responsibility.

    Our society always wants to Do Less yet Have More. Chemicals are just the easy (lazy) option.

    But as Michael said... Glyphosate would not have cleaned the gutters, removed limbs, bark, leaves etc nor would it have had any impact on the already dead grass.
     
  9. colours

    colours Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2007
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I did a gardening job once in the middle of summer (Sydney). I had a backpack of glyphos and thought I was clever by putting on pvc pants and jacket. Only when I bent over, etc the plastic protective clothing ripped and I was covered in glyphosate (it came out of the top of the backpack sprayer) and remained covered in it until I got home and had a shower.

    It was a couple of months after that that I developed multiple sclerosis. No family history, was previously healthy, etc. I have nothing to back my claim but I'm highly suspicious about the cause of the MS. I'm fine now, but I have researched heaps about MS and have fount many other similar claims.

    I'm not suggesting that you would generally douse your whole body in the stuff when you use it, but my exposure was accidental, I really had tried to avoid contact with the stuff. I'll never use it again.
     
  10. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
  11. Arby

    Arby Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    As an update to an earlier post of mine in this thread regarding the number of organic farmers in my area, I found some statistics from the 2007 USDA Ag census. In my county alone, there are 15 organic farms. That's about what I guessed. In the southern part of my state, however, there are many more than I realized. As of 2007, there were 299 organic farms in Southern Idaho totaling 111,781 organic acres.

    From all accounts, these farmers can not keep up with demand. They are not losing money as those resistant to changing their farming practices would like to believe. Farming without chemicals and turning a profit is doable. It just takes a willingness to learn different methods.
     
  12. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Yes, a stutter seems to develop when the word ch..ch..ch.. change is mentioned.

    Having used organic methods for a few years i find it hard to believe more people aren't going organic. Our neighbouring farmer has recently sprayed his crop of canola preparing for whatever goes in next. It looks like Summers Death in the middle of winter.

    Its kind of embarrassing really... do people really like the look and feel of Death that much ? If i had to go that low to make a living i'd rather be broke!
     
  13. Arby

    Arby Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I completely agree. Sprayed ground looks so sterile, lifeless and depressing to me. I'm guessing most people are so entrenched in the spraying mindset and disconnected with their natural surroundings that they don't even give it second thought though.
     
  14. Fernando Pessoa

    Fernando Pessoa Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    We have a major problem with just about every major council in australia spraying the stuff in their bush regen strategy same with some land care groups lets get back to the bradley method which was phased out in my local area.The strategy they are employing is containment it is deeply flawed and is kept in place so that there is an endless cycle of spray.it does not effectively address the seed bank issue in the soil and only serves to keep the fat cats with an ever expanding group of minions to rule over ensuring they take home a fatter and fatter pay packet it's a sham.Take direct action by unlidding the bottles in your local poison brokers stall and letting it run onto the floor.
    The runoff in water ways is catastropic as is the impact on the soil food web and micro and macro fauna......revolting
     
  15. Sonny12

    Sonny12 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    H E L P !!!!!!!! A state government grant was given to this area for the 'greening and planting of neglected areas in Armidale NSW. A local organisation have started this work. Six months ago they started poisoning with Round Up close to all our homes. Some areas the size of a tennis court. Native plants and shrubs and trees were planted and three times this has been sprayed with Round Up since they started six months ago. We have done a petition of people whose lives have been made miserable in this small area of Armidale. Everyone has been ill with many of the symptoms you list, the birds we worked so hard to attract into our gardens have all gone, trees are dying, animals are sick. The spraying of Round Up was last done three weeks ago from a truck power pump spray. - No one was notified - it was done on a Sunday morning. Getting very little help from the Council. This man how has contracted to do this work , sat in my lounge on Tuesday and told us this would go on FOREVER!!!!!! Please, please can someone help us - we have a new born baby in this street, elderly, and seriously ill people. Please, what can we do. We were never even given the option of our beautiful area being ruined and poisoned. Jon and Anne,
     
  16. Sonny12

    Sonny12 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re. Armidale. I forgot to mention that this planting and Round Up poisoning - which is the only form of maintenance they will ever do is not just our street and nearby homes, but all
    over Armidale particularly in the 'off leash' dog area which in very close to the creek water way. Haven't seen any of the little fish and turtles that we used see when we took a
    walk by nearly every day. My theory is that they have had volunteers to plant but not to weed and maintain properly. Oh, and all the plants this organisation have planted
    are dead as well as gum trees these plantings surround.
     
  17. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    gtranslated from the German

    Summary of glyphosate for weed control is a widely used technique worldwide. Harmful to human health effects have been described several times previously but primarily related to suicide attempts. Here we report a 26-year-old educator, who complained shortly after proper application of a Glyphosatpräparats a pronounced hoarseness. Lupenlaryngoskopisch and showed a stroboscopic compatible with a movement disorder called Lateralisparese the vocal folds. Six weeks after Glyphosatexposition was then a real movement. It is possible that the hoarseness of a transient partial nerve damage inferior laryngeal result, a neuro-toxicity of glyphosate has been already discussed in the literature. A transient dysphonia / laryngeal injury without suicidal intent is to Glyphosatexposition uW has not been described.
    https://www.citeulike.org/article/6046174
     

Share This Page

-->